The story so far.

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Emower
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The story so far.

Post by Emower » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:24 pm

I hope that my journey continues as well as it has gone so far. I started being curious about why people left around a year and a half ago. I knew if I pursued my curiosity that I might not believe the same again and boy was I right.

I suppose the reason for my relatively smooth transition is because I have been taking it quite slow, and my wife is a very close friend. As I began to communicate with disaffected people that I know, I told my wife that whatever I found and however it affected me she would remain most important. I told her that if that meant attending a church I didn't believe in I would do it. She told me that she could support me in whatever as long as anger wasn't part of the equation. I guess honesty and open communication was key. I subjected her to a stream of consciousness regarding what I was finding out. As soon as I learned something, I would tell her how I felt about it and we were able to discuss it because we knew one party wasn't trying to influence the other. We rarely agree, but as yet we have not had any lines drawn in the sand regarding beliefs. I am also right smack dab in the middle of it still. I am still attending, still in the EQ presidency, still teach gospel doctrine every once in a while. It is getting harder and harder though as my feelings solidify into non-belief in a lot of core church doctrines. I had to ask to be released as a mission prep teacher. I just couldnt do that one. This years tithing settlement will precipitate my not having a temple recommend, so crap will be hitting the fan fairly soon with extended family and the in-laws.

I hope that someday we can be on the same page with our beliefs, but right now we agree to disagree.
For those of you with a believing spouse, how do you handle children's teachings? If there is something that will be a line in the sand for us I think that will be it. My children are 5, 2, and 10 months.

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hiding in plain sight
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Re: The story so far.

Post by hiding in plain sight » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:58 am

Emower wrote:I hope that someday we can be on the same page with our beliefs, but right now we agree to disagree.
For those of you with a believing spouse, how do you handle children's teachings? If there is something that will be a line in the sand for us I think that will be it. My children are 5, 2, and 10 months.
Fortunately or unfortunately my children were mostly adults or late teenagers when I had my awakening. So the big points in the kids lives were "mostly" past.

My wife and I never really have talked about what can be said of what cannot be said. But for me, I intuitively worked out that I would never dump issues on my kids. But what I do tell them is that I am highly unorthodox. I tell them that I keep the gospel really simple in my life. Love others and have a spiritual life are probably the only two constants in my life pre and post waking up.

I did sit down with my youngest son, right before he was planning to go on a mission, and told him that he needed to choose for himself. Don't serve a mission because he thinks that is what we are demanding of him.

The only other thing I regularly tell my kids, is that they need to figure out for themselves what they believe. Never just rely upon anyone to know what you truly believe for yourself.

Good luck. It sounds like you are doing really well in what can be a very turbulent time of life.

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Corsair
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Re: The story so far.

Post by Corsair » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:35 am

Emower wrote:I hope that someday we can be on the same page with our beliefs, but right now we agree to disagree.
For those of you with a believing spouse, how do you handle children's teachings? If there is something that will be a line in the sand for us I think that will be it. My children are 5, 2, and 10 months.
"Taking it slow" continues to be good advice for a faith transition. I have found that I can pretty happily live with TBM wife by treating the church with relative indifference as if it were a fairly time consuming hobby my wife enjoys.

Do you play golf? I don't, and I'm a very poor golfer when I socially play with other people. But my father-in-law golfs and I have gone out with him in a normal way that fathers and sons-in-law have been known to do. I would never bad mouth the sport of golf in any aspect. I might express a desire to not use public tax money to build a golf course, but I would never bad mouth the major golf events like the Phoenix Open when it comes to town. The top players are paid well and it's a big event for the fans. I even followed Phil Mickelson around the course one year when I attended with a client.

I treat my wife's interest in the church like I consider golf. I'm supportive but I don't pretend to enjoy it short of the social aspects of being with friends and family. Dealing with children is challenging. Keep in mind that time is actually on your side. The natural rebellion that teenagers go through works in your favor. Think of yourself as an unexpected ally for your children when they are inevitably annoyed with church at some point. You don't have to hand them the CES Letter or MormonThink. You simply teach them critical thinking and they will come to an equilibrium mostly on their own. Do not discount the influence you can have despite the desperate efforts of the LDS church to indoctrinate your children.

In some ways your job is much easier than for a believing spouse. You are happy to simply teach the basics of Christian living by being kind to others and making moral decisions that promote good community. Your wife has to justify LDS virtue signalling like "cover up your shoulders" or "gay marriage should be illegal" or "missions are awesome" or "Sabbath Day restrictions". You can simply note that the LDS church put these restrictions in place and you don't have to defend them. Instead, allow your children to develop their own opinions of various LDS cultural traits.

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Obadiah_Dogberry
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Re: The story so far.

Post by Obadiah_Dogberry » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:08 am

Ah, how to teach the children.
I have 5 kids aged 4-12 and I really stress about how to teach my children. My take is that my 2 oldest are already indoctrinated enough to treat me with suspicion when I contradict the church so I try and take things slowly with them. By youngest three are clueless and I am fine with them learning myth.

For the oldest 2 I've had brief discussions with them explaining my unbelief and it was a little stressful for them some of which was my fault because I was also stressed. DW is a believer in the restoration, but she understands my issues with JS. We've agreed to teach general christian principles but not get all excited about the restoration.

Counselling was very good for us. We went to see Natasha Helfer Parker is is LDS but very liberal. She understands the TBM world as was able to help us develop a framework for teaching the kids. What she suggested is that if a child and parent has a discussion regarding church topics that it is the parents responsibility to represent both their opinion AND the other parents opinion. No sneaking behind the other parents back allowed! Then we are supposed to tell the children they get to decide what they believe. It may line up with one of the parents beliefs or it may be unique to that child.

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Emower
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Re: The story so far.

Post by Emower » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:49 pm

Great advice, thank you!

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beetbox
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Re: The story so far.

Post by beetbox » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:38 pm

Our compromise on kids (ages 10, 7, 3) is this: neither of us will ever do or say anything to the kids that makes the other spouse seem lost/misguided/wrong. Both of us are allowed to share how we feel. I'm allowed to be open with the kids about the fact that I don't believe, and she's allowed to tell them why she does.

I recently told my wife that i don't like the idea of grown-ups (whether my wife or others at church) telling the kids "I know" statements about the church. I feel that it's manipulative when impressionable kids are involved. My wife reassured me that she only phrases her discussions with the kids in terms of "I believe.". This made me glad to hear.

The kids go to church with my wife every Sunday, and I help get them ready. I'm not ever going to actively discourage them to stop attending or believing. But I will also support their desire to stay home if they ever decide they want to. I think it's only fair that if my wife gets to take them every week, that occasionally i might also get to plan some other activity on a Sunday (I haven't done this yet, but I might in the future if there is a particular activity i want to do with the kids on a Sunday).

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deacon blues
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Re: The story so far.

Post by deacon blues » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:47 am

Great post empower. Honesty is certainly the key; and the key to honest conversation is listening without judging. It's still my biggest challenge.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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AllieOop
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Re: The story so far.

Post by AllieOop » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:32 am

Emower wrote:I hope that my journey continues as well as it has gone so far. I started being curious about why people left around a year and a half ago. I knew if I pursued my curiosity that I might not believe the same again and boy was I right.

I suppose the reason for my relatively smooth transition is because I have been taking it quite slow, and my wife is a very close friend. As I began to communicate with disaffected people that I know, I told my wife that whatever I found and however it affected me she would remain most important. I told her that if that meant attending a church I didn't believe in I would do it. She told me that she could support me in whatever as long as anger wasn't part of the equation. I guess honesty and open communication was key. I subjected her to a stream of consciousness regarding what I was finding out. As soon as I learned something, I would tell her how I felt about it and we were able to discuss it because we knew one party wasn't trying to influence the other. We rarely agree, but as yet we have not had any lines drawn in the sand regarding beliefs. I am also right smack dab in the middle of it still. I am still attending, still in the EQ presidency, still teach gospel doctrine every once in a while. It is getting harder and harder though as my feelings solidify into non-belief in a lot of core church doctrines. I had to ask to be released as a mission prep teacher. I just couldnt do that one. This years tithing settlement will precipitate my not having a temple recommend, so crap will be hitting the fan fairly soon with extended family and the in-laws.

I hope that someday we can be on the same page with our beliefs, but right now we agree to disagree.
For those of you with a believing spouse, how do you handle children's teachings? If there is something that will be a line in the sand for us I think that will be it. My children are 5, 2, and 10 months.
Great post and you sound like a wise man. You'll hear over and over again the advice here to "take it slow", but it sounds like you've already figured that out so you're way ahead.

One thing I feel is important is to never fall into the belief that you're doing anything wrong by pursuing more information or knowledge and never apologize for following your conscience. You and your wife sound like you've got a great balance and respect for each other.

I can't give you much advice regarding what to teach your young kids other than to try to stay unified with your wife on that too. I'm jealous that you figured this out while your kids were still so young! Half of my kids are still very active in the church and even though we're still close, this will always be a barrier between us even though we're respectful of each other's beliefs.

Keep us posted as to how things progress for you!
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."

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