And two steps back...

[TestimonyLost]

Or maybe more like ten. I’ve been discussing my faith transition with my wife since General Conference weekend. She’s said some surprisingly hopeful things like, “It will all work out.” and “I can see us together for a lifetime even if you’re a nonbeliever.” And then we come to our conversation last night.

We ended up discussing what would change if I were to come out as a nonbeliever. She said she’s worried about tithing and how to raise the kids and if we’ll have any goals in common. I avoided my thoughts on any of those things but just reassured her that we want our kids/family to be happy and successful and that wouldn’t change.

However, over the course of this long conversation, it became apparent that no change was acceptable to her. I got so frustrated I finally asked if she could imagine a small concession that even a lot of faithful Mormons make (I gave drinking caffeinated beverages and R-rated movies as examples). She said, “No, I can’t change my standards and let you do whatever you want.”

I’m left grasping for some hope here. She has this faith that it will all work out while also expecting that nothing will change. At this point, my plan is to pretend none of the past few weeks happened. I’ve been the one to initiate all conversations on the topic so this will likely make it “go away.”

Anyone experience pushback like this from an uber-TBM and had them soften down the road? Because I’m super discouraged today.

[fh451]

Yes, I have. Often the reaction to a spouse's loss of faith is significant retrenchment, as if it's their job to make up for the spouse's weakness. Often that ends up softening because we tend to revert to the mean. What she did before is probably going to be the eventual standard (though there are certainly exceptions). Also, she needs to acknowledge that you are an independent person, because her statement that she can't "change her standards and let you do whatever you want..." seems to indicate some kind of ownership of your person. What you do does not "change her standards," unless she believes in guilt by association, I guess. It is quite possible to maintain her standards without requiring you to submit to them, too. Now, if you want to watch movies together, then you're probably going to have to find something she is OK with. If you watch something yourself on Netflix, then that's another matter. The whole process is going to require changes and compromise from both of you, and make sure that the TBM version of compromise is NOT "you continue to do everything my way and I won't divorce you." That is not a compromise, but an ultimatum. Yes, it's hard for her and you are the one who technically "changed the rules." But everyone changes during the course of a lifetime, and some changes are harder than others. Don't press things too quickly, because it also takes time to adapt to change. It will come down to making some choices, for both of you. She can either decide to stick with the marriage and make reasonable accommodations, or not. But the first reaction is normally to try and keep things the way they were, by force if necessary. Changes takes patience and time, but it can work - I had my faith transition more than 10 years ago and am still married to my good TBM wife, so it's possible. Good luck!

fh451

[Red Ryder]

Don't get discouraged. Like FH451, I transitioned my faith over 10 years ago and am still married to my TBM wife and I have now transitioned out of garments and tithing. I still attend to support my family during SM.

You have to remember this is a long game.

Right now you should focus on turning toward her and showing empathy for her feelings. Tell her you can see how this is tough and could be a strain on your relationship. Let her know that you take 100% responsibility for changing the dynamics of your marriage. Reassure her that you are committed to her more than anything else and that you appreciate the open discussions even if you aren't in agreement or able to resolve your issues right now. Let her know you desire to continue talking. Then turn towards her and hold her and embrace her in silence.

Don't pretend like anything hasn't happened and ignore the big elephant in the room. That guy ruins relationships and takes up a lot of emotional energy to ignore.

She's feeling a lot of fear right now. The church conditions us to think the worst of the worst. Like turning into a heroin junkie in the gutter or worse, a woman chasing Republican. Assure her that while your beliefs might be changing, your core values and morals are not. That's the fallacy the church has us buy into. That morality and values are exclusively tied to the church. Most humans are inherently good people. She will see that you are too.

[Corsair]

TL;DR Play the long game with your wife, let the church shoulder the burden of proof, and start enjoying life with the moral convictions you are discovering.

Your wife is deciding the level of Mormon she wants you to be and is not open to you making any decisions in this matter. Plus, she has tricked you into bearing the burden of proof of justifying any change to cultural standards. You have to play the long game. This entails being an excellent father and husband while demonstrating that your non-orthodox lifestyle is not causing spiritual disaster.

We might as well bring up the divorce option. There are situations where both parties will be happier with separating. I don't recommend it and I'm inclined to think that updating the relationship with your current wife is a better option. People change in a marriage even if they both stay orthodox believers. Plus, divorce will cause much more pain to your wife than to you. If your wife were to threaten divorce, does she think that your separation will enable less influence of non-belief on your children? Why should you take them to a church that was an accessory to the divorce? Does your wife anticipate the emotional pain of attending church as a divorced, second class ward member? I don't recommend bringing up the obvious consequences to your wife unless she foolishly threatens you with divorce. Marriage counseling is far cheaper than alimony and divorce lawyers.

You need to shift the burden of proof back onto your wife. You're not trying to introduce a porn habit in your life, you just want to watch "Hacksaw Ridge" and "The Shawshank Redemption". You simply want to enjoy the known benefits of caffeine just like David O. McKay with his Coca-cola habit or Wilford Woodruff with his coffee (and brandy) habit. What is it that you really want to do as a non-believer? You are not trying to ruin your marriage with hookers and cocaine. You just want to be the kind of Mormon who has control over his life in far greater measure than the LDS church wants in the cultural social control they have been steadily applying for nearly 200 years. You might want to choose your own underpants.

I would like to give you some bad advice. It's "bad" in the sense that a loving, equal partner in a marriage should proabably not be doing what I am about to suggest. When I was going through my faith crisis I made the personal decision to simply stop paying tithing. I was, and continue to be, in charge of family finances and I just stopped paying. I made the further audacious move to attend tithing settlement and state that I was a full tithe payer. This was a bald face lie but my good bishop's "Power of Discernment" did not appear to let him know that. Subsequently, my wife did not find out about this lack of tithing payment for a year and half. By then she was not happy, but we were well past the stage where threats of financial disaster would come upon us if we stopped paying tithing. What calamity could she possibly imagine that we would endure since we were already approaching two years with an 11% raise?

I am still married to my wife and I even hold a current temple recommend. I work with the scouts in my ward where I can encourage them to make good decisions with their life and quietly let them know that missions are optional. I attend church although I am anticipating the day that I have to turn down a calling like Ward Mission Leader or Elders Quorum President. Become the Mormon you want to become. The LDS church only has power over you that you grant to it. Play the long game with your wife, let the church shoulder the burden of proof, and start enjoying life with the moral convictions you are discovering.

[Nonny]

What they said. +++

Also, she is right, "it will all work out." It will all work out because you BOTH will MAKE it work out. Both. Not just her dictating to you or vice versa. I am no poster child for having open communication with dh, so I won't give advice on that. But one reason we are still together and at an equilibrium is because he leaves the responsibility for my own choices with me. I stopped wearing garments, or attending 2 extra hours of meetings, or paying tithing and those don't force him to change his behaviors. So I feel more willing to attend SM, extra meeting like firesides and activities to keep him company.
Good luck to you and let her have time to get used to the idea of change.

[Linked]

I can't offer you a happy story, but I can certainly be there with you.

My DW is adamant that she is not going to tell me what to do, she doesn't want to be that wife. But then if I ask her about different scenarios and whether that would be a problem or lead to a divorce she says, "I don't know, we'll have to see where you go." So it's like an ultimatum that she could decide to drop on me for any reason she felt like at any time! So frustrating. Though, to be fair to her, she really probably doesn't know how she would feel about it. I don't think she realizes the difficulty of the position she is putting me in.

This is such a tough situation for everyone involved. I blame the church.

[MalcolmVillager]

This sucks, for both of you. I can say that going slow, being gentle on yourself and her, test the waters and don't make ultimatums on your end.

So many of us are years down the road. All the stories who have come and gone are happy e dings but many (and I would guess most) have POSITIVE direction in general. When you are truly committed to the marriage it can work out. When the marriage is fragile it may not work out for various reasons, FC only being part of the story.

My TBM wife has watched me very slowly change and has cautiously followed a few steps behind. It has been very slow and never pushing to a breaking point.

We have had some blow ups, but they have been brief and the marriage was not immune to that before anyway.

Tithing is down 80%, temple is down 90%, church is down 10% (we only skip on vacation or an occasional family day), coffee & tea are acceptable so long as the kids don't know, beliefs have changed a ton (especially history and policy stuff).

We had to come to a point where we both admitted the marriage was #1 and affiliation was secondary.

[Emower]

We had to come to a point where we both admitted the marriage was #1 and affiliation was secondary.

What Malcom said is key. Be honest, tell her where you are and that a refusal to accept you is hurtful. But by all means do absolutely all you can to accept her and her beliefs. When I took my left turn down Satan Avenue I tried very hard to let her know that her and the kids were more important than anything for me, including a search for "truth." She knew that if she asked, I would stop investigating immediately. I think that that gave her confidence that I would not ruin the marriage with cocaine and hookers as Corsair said. Great line by the way.
When we got married the Bishop gave us a line about coming 100%. None of this 50/50 crap he said, you each need to come 100%. It is a cheesy line, but it is soooooo true. It is frustrating if your partner will not come 100%, but to avoid heartbreak I would convince her that you are committed fully to her. Once she is sure of that who knows what could happen?

[Dravin]

However, over the course of this long conversation, it became apparent that no change was acceptable to her. I got so frustrated I finally asked if she could imagine a small concession that even a lot of faithful Mormons make (I gave drinking caffeinated beverages and R-rated movies as examples). She said, “No, I can’t change my standards and let you do whatever you want.”

I did, but I took a relatively hard stance when it came to my own behavior. My wife is not my mother and while she can rightly lay out the sort of marriage she's willing to stay in she doesn't get to dictate to me what I can and cannot do as if I were her child. Of course it's all relative, my wife watches R rated movies and drinks caffeine so it was other issues she initially went all ultimatum over, but the principle is the same. I gave things time after the initial ultimatums, to make sure I wasn't just reflexively pushing back out of anger though.

[Enough]

Don't get discouraged. Like FH451, I transitioned my faith over 10 years ago and am still married to my TBM wife and I have now transitioned out of garments and tithing. I still attend to support my family during SM.

You have to remember this is a long game.

My experience is very similar to RR's-- except over 20 years. His advice is sound. No question, it's not easy. But a happy, fulfilling marriage is still possible.

[shadow]

I gave things time after the initial ultimatums, to make sure I wasn't just reflexively pushing back out of anger though.

My wife is similar in that not subscribing to orthodoxy is one thing, but not subscribing to orthopraxy is problematic. I was never really a rebellious teenager, but as I've transitioned and explored more of how I want to live my life if I don't believe, it's taken me time to figure out what activities I actually enjoy and line up with my values vs those I was doing as rebellion against a wife and church focused entirely on orthopraxy. I wasn't and am not always successful at remembering to check my motives when engaging in "sinful" activities. This advice to be thoughtful and patient is wise.

[TestimonyLost]

Thanks for the all the good thoughts! I can't reply over weekends so sorry for the delayed responses!

Also, she needs to acknowledge that you are an independent person, because her statement that she can't "change her standards and let you do whatever you want..." seems to indicate some kind of ownership of your person. What you do does not "change her standards," unless she believes in guilt by association, I guess. It is quite possible to maintain her standards without requiring you to submit to them, too… Changes takes patience and time, but it can work - I had my faith transition more than 10 years ago and am still married to my good TBM wife, so it's possible. Good luck!

In numerous conversations over the years, I have yet to convince her that we can have even slightly different standards. And we’ve really only talked about stuff that plenty of faithful LDS folks do.

I’m happy you’ve made things work with your wife and appreciate the positivity!

You have to remember this is a long game.

This is what I need to keep in mind. It doesn’t help that I did the secret faith transition over the course of years and then silently didn’t believe for a few more years. So I have eight years pent up but for her it’s a really fresh and raw thing.

I was so freaked out by the conversation with my wife coupled with some strong words from a friend that I’ve completely backed off and basically begged my wife over the weekend to pretend like the last few weeks didn’t happen. I don’t know where to go from here.

Your wife is deciding the level of Mormon she wants you to be and is not open to you making any decisions in this matter. Plus, she has tricked you into bearing the burden of proof of justifying any change to cultural standards. You have to play the long game. This entails being an excellent father and husband while demonstrating that your non-orthodox lifestyle is not causing spiritual disaster.

My problem is I don’t know how to transition to a non-orthodox lifestyle without a unilateral, “Here’s how it’s gonna be” attitude. She just can’t get how I could ask her to accept changes that she doesn’t agree with. I feel like the only way things will change is if I just make it, but I’d much prefer that we hammer out an agreement we can both live with.

I am still married to my wife and I even hold a current temple recommend. I work with the scouts in my ward where I can encourage them to make good decisions with their life and quietly let them know that missions are optional. I attend church although I am anticipating the day that I have to turn down a calling like Ward Mission Leader or Elders Quorum President. Become the Mormon you want to become. The LDS church only has power over you that you grant to it. Play the long game with your wife, let the church shoulder the burden of proof, and start enjoying life with the moral convictions you are discovering.

This is definitely encouraging. How did you get your wife to a point where she’s comfortable with you holding a temple recommend even if you aren’t keeping all the standards?

Also, she is right, "it will all work out." It will all work out because you BOTH will MAKE it work out. Both. Not just her dictating to you or vice versa. I am no poster child for having open communication with dh, so I won't give advice on that. But one reason we are still together and at an equilibrium is because he leaves the responsibility for my own choices with me. I stopped wearing garments, or attending 2 extra hours of meetings, or paying tithing and those don't force him to change his behaviors. So I feel more willing to attend SM, extra meeting like firesides and activities to keep him company.

To keep the peace over the years, I’ve admittedly ceded a lot of my choices to her so I just don’t know how to transition back to owning that responsibility for myself again and do so in a way that our marriage comes out healthy.

My DW is adamant that she is not going to tell me what to do, she doesn't want to be that wife. But then if I ask her about different scenarios and whether that would be a problem or lead to a divorce she says, "I don't know, we'll have to see where you go." So it's like an ultimatum that she could decide to drop on me for any reason she felt like at any time! So frustrating. Though, to be fair to her, she really probably doesn't know how she would feel about it. I don't think she realizes the difficulty of the position she is putting me in.

Our experiences have a lot in common. My wife has said recently, “I don’t want you doing X for me.” But she also can’t bear the thought of being okay with any change at all. I even pointed this paradox out to her during one of our conversations and she acknowledged that it’s inconsistent.

This sucks, for both of you. I can say that going slow, being gentle on yourself and her, test the waters and don't make ultimatums on your end.

My TBM wife has watched me very slowly change and has cautiously followed a few steps behind. It has been very slow and never pushing to a breaking point.

How did you make those changes without ultimatums?

What Malcom said is key. Be honest, tell her where you are and that a refusal to accept you is hurtful. But by all means do absolutely all you can to accept her and her beliefs. When I took my left turn down Satan Avenue I tried very hard to let her know that her and the kids were more important than anything for me, including a search for "truth." She knew that if she asked, I would stop investigating immediately.

You played the game better than me in including her earlier. I’ve been a closet unbeliever for a few years now after a lengthy faith transition and she’s just finding out now. She’s rightfully hurt by the fact that I took the journey completely on my own.

I did, but I took a relatively hard stance when it came to my own behavior. My wife is not my mother and while she can rightly lay out the sort of marriage she's willing to stay in she doesn't get to dictate to me what I can and cannot do as if I were her child. Of course it's all relative, my wife watches R rated movies and drinks caffeine so it was other issues she initially went all ultimatum over, but the principle is the same. I gave things time after the initial ultimatums, to make sure I wasn't just reflexively pushing back out of anger though.

Interesting to hear about experiences both with and without ultimatums. As I said above, I’m having trouble figuring out a path that doesn’t involve ultimatums. I’ll keep your words in mind.

My experience is very similar to RR's-- except over 20 years. His advice is sound. No question, it's not easy. But a happy, fulfilling marriage is still possible.

Thanks for the positivity!

My wife is similar in that not subscribing to orthodoxy is one thing, but not subscribing to orthopraxy is problematic.

You hit the nail on the head with that first thought. Based on things she’s said recently, I think she can more easily accept a total lack of belief than me cracking open a can of Pepsi in front of her.

[Corsair]

This is what I need to keep in mind. It doesn’t help that I did the secret faith transition over the course of years and then silently didn’t believe for a few more years. So I have eight years pent up but for her it’s a really fresh and raw thing.

Forgive yourself over not telling your wife. The LDS church had decades to provide a complete story and they have only made a few steps forward so far. People have been excommunicated for persistently asking questions. Obviously the September Six were a casualty of this as well as John Dehlin, Kay Kelly, and Jeremy Runnells more recently. Asking questions generates very poor responses from many leaders and family members. Plus, the LDS church has lots of social penalties if they simply don't like your attitude. Penalties include not attending weddings, not baptizing your children, having to publicly not take the sacrament, and in general being treated like a second class citizen.

I was so freaked out by the conversation with my wife coupled with some strong words from a friend that I’ve completely backed off and basically begged my wife over the weekend to pretend like the last few weeks didn’t happen. I don’t know where to go from here.

The way to go from here is to be the best husband and father you can. More verbal explanations are not going to make this easier. More progress will come from doing something new. I recommend going to church with your family for now and finding a new hobby. Cultivate an attitude of indifference towards the church. Feeling anger towards the church plays into their narrative. The church does not fear apostasy as much as it fears being ignored. So go to church with a good attitude with your family for now. Politely turn down callings and pursue different aims on Sunday after church

My problem is I don’t know how to transition to a non-orthodox lifestyle without a unilateral, “Here’s how it’s gonna be” attitude. She just can’t get how I could ask her to accept changes that she doesn’t agree with. I feel like the only way things will change is if I just make it, but I’d much prefer that we hammer out an agreement we can both live with.

Nobody knows how to make this transition easy. If there was an easy way to do it then most churches would have either collapsed already, or adapted. Forget making big Word of Wisdom changes. Tithing is tough, but you already know that I would simply stop paying. Help your wife to understand the natural, financial consequences to your budget due to tithing.

This is definitely encouraging. How did you get your wife to a point where she’s comfortable with you holding a temple recommend even if you aren’t keeping all the standards?

My current temple recommend is a paradox to most apostates I meet. I am clearly an outlier. But my wife does not want the pity or embarrassment of being a church widow who constantly has to explain why her husband is an apostate. In a way, it's my strategic deterrent. There is clearly an element of luck because I have not had to turn down a calling yet and my wife has peacefully accepted this status. After I told her of my own lack of belief I must have completely confused her by continuing to attend church. I even sing in the choir. Volunteering to be on the scout committee also helped a lot, but your mileage may vary (especially if you don't like scouting).

To keep the peace over the years, I’ve admittedly ceded a lot of my choices to her so I just don’t know how to transition back to owning that responsibility for myself again and do so in a way that our marriage comes out healthy.

You are over-thinking this. While communication is usually good in a marriage, this might be a case to stop talking about the church with her as much as you can. My recommended tactic would be to let her come to you with questions. Stop asking if a scenario will lead to divorce and instead work on becoming the husband and father that she would be nuts to leave. Trying to explain your way out of this is not going to work because she is thinking with her very LDS heart and the only acceptable outcome is penitent return to belief and activity.

Giver her less verbal information and start doing something new instead. Figure out your own moral basis and what you really want to do with your life. The LDS church had a plan for every stage of your life and it never asked your permission for directing your efforts into preservation of the institutional LDS church and loyalty to 15 prophets, seers, and revelators. Instead, work on your own plan that makes you the winner no matter what she does. Either you become the unbelieving husband that is loyal to his wife, or you become the unbelieving ex-husband who navigates the divorce and makes his life great without the ex-wife who was loyal to her church instead of her good husband.

[Red Ryder]

Instead, work on your own plan that makes you the winner no matter what she does. Either you become the unbelieving husband that is loyal to his wife, or you become the unbelieving ex-husband who navigates the divorce and makes his life great without the ex-wife who was loyal to her church instead of her good husband.

+1