Was Joseph Smith martyred, murdered, or removed from his place?

[NOWmormon]

What do you think?

[Give It Time]

My current thoughts are that it was frontier justice. It was simply a different time. As I've traveled around to other other historical sites that were contemporary (Wild West), there was a lot of this same behavior. The young and expanding America was still figuring things out. There was an unusual and interesting tension between law and order and taking matters into their own hands. I see the Carthage mob as a lynch mob with guns, rather than ropes.

[Brent]

The beauty of the question is that it identifies the three major philosophical groups.

[fh451]

The beauty of the question is that it identifies the three major philosophical groups.

Well spotted. All three can be true depending on your point of view. I believe he was both #1 and #2 - the mob committed murder and that made him a martyr for the church. Many that identify with #2 or #3 are often unaware that he went down shooting, though.

fh451

[Dravin]

His killing was extralegal making it murder. As far as martyred it's going to depend on if you use a more general idea of being killed because of his adherence to beliefs or use a more specific concept of voluntarily going to one's death as a witness. I think a case can be made for the former sense but not so much for the latter considering he fought back against the mob.

[AllieOop]

I think a case can be made for the former sense but not so much for the latter considering he fought back against the mob.

And his last words were crying for help from any Freemasons in the crowd.

I believe he was murdered. It was wrong, but IMO, he was not a martyr.

How about Parley P. Pratt? Was he murdered or a martyr? For some reason, the leaders don't tout his death like they do Joseph's....hmmmm...wonder why?

[Mad Jax]

No question it was legally considered murder. And yes, the act ensured martyrdom for the founder of the church when time would likely have revealed more duplicity in his actions, I believe.

[document]

I have always said (even as a believer) that Joseph Smith deserved to be jailed, tried, and put in prison for his blatant abuse of power and destruction of a printing press while in position of power in the government. However, he should not have been killed.

That idea was always unpopular as a believer, though. And to be honest, in some ex-Mormon circles I have been in, it is an unpopular idea as well.

[wtfluff]

I believe he was murdered. It was wrong, but IMO, he was not a martyr.

It's tricky isn't it? He was actually in prison for breaking the law: The destruction of the printing press. So if he was murdered because he was in prison for breaking the law, he's not a martyr.

Those that believe he had a divine calling will probably always say he was a martyr.

Those who believe he had a divine calling to begin with, but had gone off the rails will probably say he was removed.

It's all about perspective, eh?

I'll go ahead and vote for: Murder.


What would have become of "the church" had he not been murdered? Inquiring minds and all that stuff...

[Corsair]

I go with the "murdered" option also. I have told believing friends that Joseph was victim of a lynching which certainly fits with extra-legal frontier justice. This always makes believers pause since if someone was lynched, they might still be considered guilty even if a court of law had not yet delivered a verdict.

[RubinHighlander]

Murdered IMO. Took a gun and fought back, so not a martyr in my book but his followers certainly made him one and thinking makes it so.

I also wonder or think it could be possible he was so narcissistic that he thought he'd get out of that jail and live to marry another man's wife or 14 year old girl once again; just like he had gotten away with all the other crap he had done up to that point. I think he started to believe his own con and think he really did have divine providence to do whatever the hell he wanted to and come out smelling like a rose.

[Not Buying It]

Yep, it was murder. But some say he didn't expect to die, that he had ordered the head of the Nauvoo Legion, Jonathan Dunham, to come rescue him. See https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... cue_him%3F for FAIR's refutation of that story. Whether or not it was true, I really don't think he expected to die that day. I think the "lamb to the slaughter" story is a load of hooey - he had slipped out of some serious trouble before, I think he was the kind of con man who thought he was always going to find a way to get out of it.

The mob screwed up though. He was getting progressively more batcrap crazy, having himself anointed king of the world, requesting an army from the U.S. government with which to subdue the West, pulling ever more bizarre and esoteric doctrines out of his butt - another five years and the Church would have imploded, he was headed off the rails and was on a path that was not sustainable. Instead of letting him have enough rope to hang himself, the mob made him a martyr, the Saints were galvanized, Brigham Young saw his chance to step in and seize power and fulfill the full measure of his potential to be a tyrant and a despot, and the rest is history.

[wtfluff]

The mob screwed up though. He was getting progressively more batcrap crazy, having himself anointed king of the world, requesting an army from the U.S. government with which to subdue the West, pulling ever more bizarre and esoteric doctrines out of his butt - another five years and the Church would have imploded, he was headed off the rails and was on a path that was not sustainable. Instead of letting him have enough rope to hang himself, the mob made him a martyr, the Saints were galvanized, Brigham Young saw his chance to step in and seize power and fulfill the full measure of his potential to be a tyrant and a despot, and the rest is history.

Interesting... How do you envision the "implosion" NBI? Does the church just wither and die, or does something more sinister happen akin to David Koresh and the Branch Davidians?

[Not Buying It]

The mob screwed up though. He was getting progressively more batcrap crazy, having himself anointed king of the world, requesting an army from the U.S. government with which to subdue the West, pulling ever more bizarre and esoteric doctrines out of his butt - another five years and the Church would have imploded, he was headed off the rails and was on a path that was not sustainable. Instead of letting him have enough rope to hang himself, the mob made him a martyr, the Saints were galvanized, Brigham Young saw his chance to step in and seize power and fulfill the full measure of his potential to be a tyrant and a despot, and the rest is history.

Interesting... How do you envision the "implosion" NBI? Does the church just wither and die, or does something more sinister happen akin to David Koresh and the Branch Davidians?

Well, you know, Joseph died in a prison for a reason. Let's say the mob never kills him. He either is prosecuted for treason or whatever other charges are appropriate for destroying a printing press and declaring martial law, and then he's convicted, or he gets off the hook again and is further emboldened to think he can do whatever he wants and get away with it. He's getting more and more audacious all the time in the 1840s, but he is also alienating more and more of his followers with polygamy and his crazy shenanigans in general. He'd done that before in Kirtland, but when he alienated the Kirtland members he had the Missouri members to run off to. In the 1840s Nauvoo was all he had - when he alienated enough members he didn't have anyplace else to go like he did when he fleeced all that money with the Kirtland Anti-Banking scam and had to get out of Kirtland. In the 1840s, as he gets bolder and crazier, he loses more members and/or does something crazy and illegal enough to get himself arrested and put away for a few years. I mean, you have to admit, when you look at him at the end of his life, the guy was really going off the rails.

The way I see it, he either goes to jail and is discredited, or alienates enough followers that he no longer has enough core members to sustain the Church through the next generation. Or both. Either way, the Church withers and dies. The only reason it survived is because on Joseph's death Brigham was savvy enough to seize power and take everybody clear the hell out hundreds of miles away from civilization in the Utah wilderness where they either went along with his despotic rule or starved to death (or got "used up" by Brigham's goons). Without that isolation, the Church eventually fades away.

I am open to alternative scenarios though. I'm not always right.

[Hagoth]

If destroying the press, stealing the Masonic secrets, illegally marrying teenagers and other men's wives, and all of the other things were actually God's will, then he was martyred. The problem is that most people who consider him a martyr don't want to acknowledge that he did any of those things.

[wtfluff]

Interesting... How do you envision the "implosion" NBI? Does the church just wither and die, or does something more sinister happen akin to David Koresh and the Branch Davidians?

Well, you know, Joseph died in a prison for a reason. Let's say the mob never kills him. He either is prosecuted for treason or whatever other charges are appropriate for destroying a printing press and declaring martial law, and then he's convicted, or he gets off the hook again and is further emboldened to think he can do whatever he wants and get away with it. He's getting more and more audacious all the time in the 1840s, but he is also alienating more and more of his followers with polygamy and his crazy shenanigans in general. He'd done that before in Kirtland, but when he alienated the Kirtland members he had the Missouri members to run off to. In the 1840s Nauvoo was all he had - when he alienated enough members he didn't have anyplace else to go like he did when he fleeced all that money with the Kirtland Anti-Banking scam and had to get out of Kirtland. In the 1840s, as he gets bolder and crazier, he loses more members and/or does something crazy and illegal enough to get himself arrested and put away for a few years. I mean, you have to admit, when you look at him at the end of his life, the guy was really going off the rails.

The way I see it, he either goes to jail and is discredited, or alienates enough followers that he no longer has enough core members to sustain the Church through the next generation. Or both. Either way, the Church withers and dies. The only reason it survived is because on Joseph's death Brigham was savvy enough to seize power and take everybody clear the hell out hundreds of miles away from civilization in the Utah wilderness where they either went along with his despotic rule or starved to death (or got "used up" by Brigham's goons). Without that isolation, the Church eventually fades away.

I am open to alternative scenarios though. I'm not always right.

I "Like" your scenario. And wish upon a star that something like it would have happened...

If destroying the press, stealing the Masonic secrets, illegally marrying teenagers and other men's wives, and all of the other things were actually God's will, then he was martyred. The problem is that most people who consider him a martyr don't want to acknowledge that he did any of those things.

This deserves s big "Like" too.

[Grace2Daisy]

My current thoughts are that it was frontier justice.

First of all Give It Time. . . . I smile at your avatar! Nice!

Smith's big offense was his secret polygamy practice. After having denied it for years, Smith's practice was exposed by some dissident Mormons in the Nauvoo Expositor. Its publishers also had charges filed against Smith of adultery and polygamy. Wishing to keep polygamy and his "council of fifty" secret, Smith retaliated by ordering the Expositor press destroyed. And we need to remember Smith was still under indictment for the attempted murder of Lilburn Boggs in Missouri.

The word was out as to JS's secret practices as well as his attempted murder of Boggs, frontier justice took over.

[Give It Time]

My current thoughts are that it was frontier justice.

First of all Give It Time. . . . I smile at your avatar! Nice!

Smith's big offense was his secret polygamy practice. After having denied it for years, Smith's practice was exposed by some dissident Mormons in the Nauvoo Expositor. Its publishers also had charges filed against Smith of adultery and polygamy. Wishing to keep polygamy and his "council of fifty" secret, Smith retaliated by ordering the Expositor press destroyed. And we need to remember Smith was still under indictment for the attempted murder of Lilburn Boggs in Missouri.

The word was out as to JS's secret practices as well as his attempted murder of Boggs, frontier justice took over.

It didn't hit home to me until I read Mormon Enigma. Joseph and company were allowed to escape when they are being transported from Liberty Jail. The leaders of this church can accuse the charges for being spurious all they want, but they were allowed to escape. This means that Joseph and his associates were fugitives from the law. I'm not clear on how the laws were, but as mayor of Nauvoo, there was limited ability to arrest Joseph. He could walk about Nauvoo pretty freely, but once he stepped foot out of Nauvoo, he could be and was arrested. Still, even with this, there are secret passages in the mansion house. Joseph had the Danites and the whistling and wittling boys for protection. He was assembling an army. He knew he wasn't entirely untouchable.

So, with all the grievances listed above, culminating in destroying the printing press. That final act was bad enough that Joseph could be arrested within the Nauvoo City limits. He ran for it. He was hiding out outside the city limits and was taken to jail. The actual men in the mob, it's my understanding had as their biggest grievance, polygamy. They were worked up over this. A mob mentality took over and that, to me, makes it frontier justice and murder.

Along with that, Smith ran. He didn't go voluntarily as a martyr would do. Someone snuck guns into him in Carthage and he used them to defend himself. Finally, his last words were a call for aid from any masons in the group. To me a martyr is someone who dies willingly for the cause. Smith, on three occasions did anything but that. I see this as murder by people overcome with a mob mentality. His death galvanized the Mormons, to be sure, but I don't think it technically fits the definition of martyr.

To be removed from office would imply he was put there by God. I don't think he was.

Murder

[LaMachina]

Without question murdered.

Martyrdom very much depends on one's point of view but I've never quite understood the trope that one is only a martyr when marching voluntarily and meekly to their death. IMO a martyr is someone killed for their beliefs regardless of whether they try to avoid their death or even if they try to defend themselves or others. I think there is a reasonable argument that he was killed for his beliefs but I understand the hesitation to label him a martyr for some of the implications that raises.

As far as "removed from his place" I'm not sure what that means exactly. I assume it means God killed him? And if we're talking of an omnipotent, omniscient god then I guess he is ultimately responsible if we employ bystander laws. But whatever the case we know for sure he was removed from his place by the mob.

[Give It Time]

Without question murdered.

Martyrdom very much depends on one's point of view but I've never quite understood the trope that one is only a martyr when marching voluntarily and meekly to their death. IMO a martyr is someone killed for their beliefs regardless of whether they try to avoid their death or even if they try to defend themselves or others. I think there is a reasonable argument that he was killed for his beliefs but I understand the hesitation to label him a martyr for some of the implications that raises.

As far as "removed from his place" I'm not sure what that means exactly. I assume it means God killed him? And if we're talking of an omnipotent, omniscient god then I guess he is ultimately responsible if we employ bystander laws. But whatever the case we know for sure he was removed from his place by the mob.

I still think without the voluntary March, he's not a martyr, unless one considers polygamy his cause--which one definitely could. I can't remember why he was jailed in Liberty, but he was allowed to escape. He was pretty untouchable in Nauvoo and the Mormons had a tendency to scare the bejeebers out of their neighbors with all their talk of taking over. Nauvoo went from non-existent to the largest city in Illinois in, what, five years? I know Joseph left Nauvoo with Emma to visit a relative of hers and he was arrested while there. Emma pleaded his case with the governor and Joseph was released. All the while whisperings of polygamy became louder.

Then William Law disaffected, broke the silence, and Joseph broke the printing press. Law reported the crime and Joseph was no longer untouchable in Nauvoo. By the time he was in Carthage, I think the neighbors were fed up with him. Disgusted with polygamy and were tired of how the law just let him keep slipping through their fingers.

I consider polygamy the reason the neighbors were worked up and the reason behind the events that led to Joseph's final arrest.

At this point I think Emma's statement at seeing Joseph's corpse, "have they murdered you, at last" a pretty interesting statement and could be spoken so very many ways.