Homosexuals are broken

[MalcolmVillager]

TL:DR are gays really broken?

It is interesting to me how we limit God in doctrine and how we put words in his mouth and intentions in every natural thing. Somehow God made everything with intention (except for the stuff that is either a mistake or an act of Satan). His words tell us all sorts of things about the pre & post mortal life (that are unknowable and seemingly either fit human perspective or that conveniently benefit the preacher, a la polygamy).

I don't see how sex or gender will have anything to do with creation in eternity (although a dude can dream, am I right?!).

I know that is heretical to Mormonism but the thought of poor women in perpetual gestation and/or the concubines and wet nurses makes me sick. There has to be a better way. (Que the Jim Gaffighan joke about men contributing to creation by doing the one thing they think about 24/7).

I am confident that science will allow humans to procreate with 2 men or 2 women genetically within 50-100 years. We are already doing 1 man, 2 women procreation legally in the UK. Why do we feel it necessary to limit God's power with our oppressive conservative cultural norms?

I am open minded to the possibility that we will all be magically fixed upon our post-mortal twinkling, but I don't see a likelihood that sexual attraction has eternal import.

Will we breath, or eat, or drink, or sleep, or copulate in heaven? If we don't, will we die? If we do in excess, will we destroy our souls?

The (frankly BS) explanation that LGBTQ are broken and will be fixed (if they are celebate) in heaven is rediculous. We say the same of the mentally infirm, yet they dont have any conditions placed on them (i.e.they will be perfected in heaven if they don't misuse their limited mental capacity during human probation).

Even if they will be fixed in heaven, why do we have to judge or punish them in this life? We don't do the same for mentally disabled. We don't do this for blacks (anymore).

Anyway, that is enough ranting for now. The church was worried that blackness would rub off on us if we accepted it. We are now worried that homosexuality will too.

Baloney!

[Can of Worms]

Well said!

[Korihor]

"Can't we all just get along?"



Note, this image of Nelson was taken from lds.org

[Corsair]

TL:DR are gays really broken?

I'm not sure how the LDS church could change the narrative and still remain distinctly LDS. This seems like one small domino that starts knocking down a monumental string of doctrinal and policy dominoes ending in absurdity. I truly think that the defense against homosexuality is the hill that the LDS church will die on. Consider what would ultimately need to change if homosexual relationships were normalized:

The current temple narrative would feel irrelevant and possibly insulting to a homosexual couple getting married. Calls for major changes would certainly ensue.

Two men being married could both hold the Melchizedek priesthood and give blessings to each other. Two women being married would still need faithful home teachers. Calls for female ordination would be far more obvious. Does any narrative about plural marriage make any sense after that? Do the rules for sealing men and women need to radically change?

This would lead to asking for gender changes leadership. New rules about the gender composition of presidencies would arise. Could a male bishop have a woman counselor? Could a female Relief Society President have a man counselor? There are woman pastors in other faiths, but they are usually trained professionals. What would be the effect of having a woman as bishop who was nominally a volunteer? Would this be a different strain on her husband and their marriage?

At that point, would there be any relevance for a separation between men and women in the third hour meetings at church? Would all classes just be variants of Primary and Sunday School with mix gender groups for religious instruction? Would the LDS church simply start to look like the Unitarians?

Most importantly, would this affect the growth of membership as well as the attraction and retention of converts? Talking about affecting revenue may seem quite crass, but I cannot imagine a case where this ends in a stronger financial or demographic situation for the LDS church.

Tell me how and why I am wrong in this reasoning. My lesbian daughter will not be part of the LDS church and that is probably healthier for both my daughter and the LDS church. I have no illusions that humans can necessarily change their sexual orientations and I equally don't see how the LDS church could change radically and still survive. I see no case where this could be resolved. Prove me wrong.

[MalcolmVillager]

Corsair, you are probably right but changing doctrines are nothing new to Mormonism. I agree that the temple would have to change and women would need to have the PH. I hope for both of those things anyway.

I think this is a hill they could die on. For some members rhe COJCOLDS already has died on that hill, which is why many have left or have become disenchanted or disaffected. There will always be those who will not change perspective or opinion until the Q15 tell them what to think.

Mormons have big families and big families have gays. Within 2-5 generations (depending on birth rates of the family), most Mormon families will have at least one LGBTQ family member. If celibacy is the only acceptable lifestyle for them, few will be able to walk that line for the long haul. Even if they do, they are so judged and marginalized by the family message and activities, they will likely fall out of activity for social reasons.

Kicking out gays is not sustainable long term. Within 100 years I am 99% confident it will change, 80% confident within 50 years, 50% hopeful within 30 years (a generation), and 5% hopeful within 10 years. That means the chances are slim, even in my optimistic mind. Blacks got the PH. You never know.

A lot of chips have to fall before that. Unless it is really painful, I dont see it happening.

We can dream cant we?!

BTW, your DD is lucky to have you! The church needs more members like you!

[Brent]

As the father of a gay son I'll admit to being overly hopefully but ultimately pragmatic. The answer to most difficult LDS doctrine is: it changes...or somehow, someday, the Lord will make it all OK. Some times both. The simple ability of under 40 LDS toaccept and embrace gay family may be a major reason for youth to bailout; being a hater isn't cool. Will it ever change, could being LGBT someday be accepted by the Church? Revelations of convenience aren't unknown. The church must bend to culture at some point. I hope I'm still alive when it does. If the church were as rigid as some portray it to be than we'd all have 4 mom's and blacks wouldn't have the priesthood.

[w2mz]

Even if they will be fixed in heaven, why do we have to judge or punish them in this life? We don't do the same for mentally disabled. We don't do this for blacks (anymore).

Interesting. Being the father of a mentally handicapped daughter, and not having any recourse to 'fix' that issue, was one of the items on my shelf that aided the collapse.

I'm pretty sure she didn't logically make a decision to live as a mentally handicapped individual. Should we restrict any of her happiness because she doesn't function at the same level as other girls her age? She is "different" from others in her cognitive abilities, definitely not equal to her peers by societal or educational standards, so should she have had have to denounce me as her father before she was baptized?

Kinda seems like that's what the the church is doing to gay persons.

[Corsair]

BTW, your DD is lucky to have you! The church needs more members like you!

Thank you. Their wedding is later this summer and I will provide more details and possibly pictures as the time approaches. I fully expect some astonishingly attractive children biologically born to this union in the next few years.

But the LDS church has defined these two women out of existence despite their capabilities and inherent goodness. They both attended all church meetings growing up. They both attended EFY at times. They not only graduated from seminary, they actually met in seminary and HS choir. Both of them would absolutely have embraced being fantastic Primary music leaders and teachers. They would have been awesome Young Women leaders or Activity Day Leaders. They would have gladly served in Relief Society.

But some other church or community group will reap the profound benefit of their extensive musical and intellectual talents. Some other group of good people will enjoy their delightful presence. They both are blessed with loving, supportive, temple recommend holding parents and loving siblings. Multiple siblings have talked to me about the profound disconnect between the rhetoric they hear about "Same Sex Attraction" in church and seminary. They will be choosing their sisters over LDS policies and doctrine when push inevitably comes to shove.

The future of the LDS church will be hinging on these teenagers and Primary age children who have to choose between loving their sisters over apostles who claim "there are no homosexual members of the church". I recognize that apostles have often tried to nuance their comments as lovingly as they can. But my future grandchildren are expressly forbidden from being baptized or even blessed in the church. These two future mothers could not be shown as examples of righteous parents if they attended and LDS Church. I have no faith that things will get better for them in time to retain them.

[MalcolmVillager]

Thank you. Their wedding is later this summer and I will provide more details and possibly pictures as the time approaches. I fully expect some astonishingly attractive children biologically born to this union in the next few years.

So very cool. This all breals my heart! Pictures please. I went to a gay wedsimg last summer and it was awesome!