Membership in Japan

[dareka]

I was recently told that one of the branches I served in was combined with a branch in another city in Japan. I suppose it's not all that unusual, but I remember when I first arrived in that area 30+ years ago, the members were excited to be in a brand new church building. It wasn't a huge building, but given the cost of land in Japan, it probably cost as much as the cookie-cutter buildings in Utah. It wasn't a huge branch, but there could be up to 30 people attending any given week. I'd be surprised if the church broke even on what it spent to build that building. I'm told it's sitting there empty now.

I think membership numbers in Japan are pretty static, probably declining as people stop attending without bothering to resign. So why did the church build new temples in Fukuoka and Sapporo? Is it just to give the illusion that all is well in that part of the world? Was it to try to increase tithes and offerings, and increase meeting attendance in the cities nearby?

I believe that Mormonism is incompatible with Japanese culture, and I wonder why any Japanese person would join. Many have, but most of those stopped attending soon after baptism.

Sorry for rambling. I'm interested in your thoughts about this. Thanks.

[2bizE]

What makew the church incompatible with the culture?

[Korihor]

What makew the church incompatible with the culture?

Without any knowledge whatsoever in this matter, I'd venture there is a huge clash of East vs West.

[dareka]

What makew the church incompatible with the culture?

Life in Japan is very busy. There are people who only get Sundays off, so having to keep the Sabbath is difficult. Virtually everyone drinks tea and coffee, not to mention alcohol. This is probably not much different than other places in the world outside the Mormon Corridor, but they really think you're strange if you don't drink tea since it's like water to them. Many school kids have school activities on Saturdays, making Sunday their only day off. Also, Shintoism and Buddhism are basic parts of their culture. Somewhere around 30% of Japanese responded "convinced atheist" when surveyed, yet they still tend to participate in the traditional religious festivals. Even the Japanese Mormons participate in some of them.

I could be wrong - I suppose it's not much different than the church fitting into other cultures. I've just always felt that it wasn't a good fit. Even when I was a believer I couldn't see what appeal the church had for them.

[oliblish]

The number of wards and branches in Japan has dropped from 317 to 265 since 1999. That is a loss of 52 congregations. I don't see this trend changing any time soon. There has not been a single year in that span where the number of congregations increased.

I was on my mission there about 30 years ago. The church was growing back then. There were only a handful of people that I taught that ended up getting baptized (maybe 8?) but none of them remained active for long.

I know that in the late 1970's the Tokyo South mission was the top baptizing mission in the world for a short while. They were having a big push to increase membership before the Tokyo Temple opened. There were many young people that were baptized shortly after hearing all of the lessons condensed into one. Lots of high pressure street contacting and portable baptismal fonts. Of course the vast majority of those "converts" didn't stick around.

I would guess the new temples there sit empty a large percentage of the time.

[Grace2Daisy]

I think membership numbers in Japan are pretty static, probably declining as people stop attending without bothering to resign. So why did the church build new temples in Fukuoka and Sapporo? Is it just to give the illusion that all is well in that part of the world? Was it to try to increase tithes and offerings, and increase meeting attendance in the cities nearby?

I think most inactive members just fade away, not resigning, just stop attending. How many people know or care about a formal resignation letter, especially outside the US? I was on the HC in two different stakes in two different states, and the membership attendance were close to identical, 27% Sacrament meeting attendance, 70% YM/YW loss after graduation, the average age of those active increasing on a yearly basis. The vast majority of people just flat stop attending.

As to why the church would built new temples anywhere is an interesting question, given the stagnation of growth and activity. I use to think temples were built only to increase tithing, and that is most likely still a major factor, but your thought of an illusion might carry some local political or religious clout.

I'm beginning to think the church uses temples as a marketing tool to sell real estate. I know in Utah it is part of a long term real estate plan:
1) Buy large parcels of land,
2) Design communities to include shopping centers and hundreds of homes,
3) Build and sell the homes, rent out the commercial space, have meeting houses centrally located,
4) Let word get out, or simply announce that a temple will be built in that area, to increase home sales,
5) Once homes are sold and occupied, build a temple on land that was originally set aside

In Salt Lake City a church company is currently working on a new master-planned community on the city’s west side for almost 4,000 homes. Hmmmm. . . . is there a temple in the future there?

Take a look at Florida. The church owns 290,000 acres and it has plans to build a new city which will grow to 500,000 people by 2080. How many homes shopping centers and meeting house will be built, followed by temple?

Why did the church decide to build a temple in downtown Philadelphia? I'm mean really, why downtown? Could it be because right next to it they could build a 490,000 square foot apartment building, which includes 258 condos and 13 townhouses?

Sorry to derail the Japan questions, I too got on a roll and started venting.

[deacon blues]

I remember a high pressure combined lesson plan introduced in my Southern California mission about that same time. The reasoning for it was 50% of baptized converts stay active, so, it doesn't matter what we teach them, just get them baptized- ASAP. Sometimes the very same day.

[dareka]

The number of wards and branches in Japan has dropped from 317 to 265 since 1999. That is a loss of 52 congregations. I don't see this trend changing any time soon. There has not been a single year in that span where the number of congregations increased.

I was on my mission there about 30 years ago. The church was growing back then. There were only a handful of people that I taught that ended up getting baptized (maybe 8?) but none of them remained active for long.

I know that in the late 1970's the Tokyo South mission was the top baptizing mission in the world for a short while. They were having a big push to increase membership before the Tokyo Temple opened. There were many young people that were baptized shortly after hearing all of the lessons condensed into one. Lots of high pressure street contacting and portable baptismal fonts. Of course the vast majority of those "converts" didn't stick around.

I would guess the new temples there sit empty a large percentage of the time.

Thanks for the numbers, Oblish. That confirms what I suspected.

Those 1970s baptism tactics really made it tough for us 1980s guys. We weren't allow to do street proselyting because it had gotten such a bad image. I'm sure you often heard kids shout "Chotto ii desu ka?" as you rode by on your bike. The missionaries of the 1970s had gotten such a bad image that they were often the subject of comedy routines on TV (so I'm told), and that line was the typical approach used by them. Oh, the memories.

[didyoumythme]

I believe that Mormonism is incompatible with Japanese culture, and I wonder why any Japanese person would join. Many have, but most of those stopped attending soon after baptism.

I have a couple thoughts about the culture and under-utilized temples in Asia. About the tea-drinking culture, my brother went to an asian country on his mission and apparently the WoW is applied differently over there. The missionaries only taught that you can't drink green or red tea, but other teas were fine apparently. Strange since they all come from the leaves of the same plant. It is strange how doctrines accepted in the USA are reinterpreted and applied differently in other countries. I thought God's law was God's law, regardless of Geography.

Regarding temples, I have heard quotes from leaders saying that some temples are built for the millennium. They justify low attendance by telling themselves that they will be utilized more in the millennium so it's no big deal if no one shows up now. This is easier than admitting that they made a mistake building a temple somewhere I guess.

[no1saint]

I think membership numbers in Japan are pretty static, probably declining as people stop attending without bothering to resign. So why did the church build new temples in Fukuoka and Sapporo? Is it just to give the illusion that all is well in that part of the world? Was it to try to increase tithes and offerings, and increase meeting attendance in the cities nearby?

I think most inactive members just fade away, not resigning, just stop attending. How many people know or care about a formal resignation letter, especially outside the US? I was on the HC in two different stakes in two different states, and the membership attendance were close to identical, 27% Sacrament meeting attendance, 70% YM/YW loss after graduation, the average age of those active increasing on a yearly basis. The vast majority of people just flat stop attending.

As to why the church would built new temples anywhere is an interesting question, given the stagnation of growth and activity. I use to think temples were built only to increase tithing, and that is most likely still a major factor, but your thought of an illusion might carry some local political or religious clout.

I'm beginning to think the church uses temples as a marketing tool to sell real estate. I know in Utah it is part of a long term real estate plan:
1) Buy large parcels of land,
2) Design communities to include shopping centers and hundreds of homes,
3) Build and sell the homes, rent out the commercial space, have meeting houses centrally located,
4) Let word get out, or simply announce that a temple will be built in that area, to increase home sales,
5) Once homes are sold and occupied, build a temple on land that was originally set aside

In Salt Lake City a church company is currently working on a new master-planned community on the city’s west side for almost 4,000 homes. Hmmmm. . . . is there a temple in the future there?

Take a look at Florida. The church owns 290,000 acres and it has plans to build a new city which will grow to 500,000 people by 2080. How many homes shopping centers and meeting house will be built, followed by temple?

Why did the church decide to build a temple in downtown Philadelphia? I'm mean really, why downtown? Could it be because right next to it they could build a 490,000 square foot apartment building, which includes 258 condos and 13 townhouses?

Sorry to derail the Japan questions, I too got on a roll and started venting.

Your real estate theory is spot on. They are doing this all over the world in areas where they enjoy concentrated numbers or want concentrated numbers. The Church has dropped a fair chunk of coin in New Zealand in the past 10 years on the former CCNZ site and Temple View community leading up to the Temple. Philadelphia Temple has the large complex being built next to it, as you mentioned Florida, someone has done some sleuthing and the large apartment building adjacent and joining onto the NY Temple is now owned by the Church, the Laie Developments in Hawaii and I am sure there are more we don't know about as well.

I see a direct correlation between when GBH was President and now, especially when Bishop Burton was retired. GBH always said that the Church felt the safe long term investments was agriculture which if needed could be turned into assets to feed the people. Now we see the Church farmlands in Florida earmarked for development, the farmlands surrounding the Temple in New Zealand earmarked for housing and the large Church Farms in Australia sold off. Does anyone remember when the Hong Kong Temple was built that it was a multipurpose design to save money on costly land? So why is there now another Church building opposite sitting on a larger block of land and a very large Church High Rise on the island? It's been alleged that the high rise with the Conference Centre are the most expensive items on the balance sheet for the Church. So, why the sudden investment in real estate for 10 years? I agree, Temples are being used as assets to increase the balance sheets, but why? The new Japanese Temple is sublime and quite stunning. But it seems overkill considering the lack of active membership in the area. So why build it? Same with Paris, Rome and almost all European Temples that just feel like ego projects and asset boosting box tickers. The big question is what is the end game?

[alas]

My brother went to S Korea on his mission and he felt the same way about the culture just not being a good fit for Mormons.

One of the problems that he mentioned that no one here has brought up so far is that the Eastern religions tend to be philosophies as much or more than religions, so, they "collect" religions and can claim to believe several at once. But that is NOT how Christianity is. So a person can like a philosophy/religion and join it to study and learn without leaving the religion he previously followed. So, people simply did not understand why they had to give up being Buddhist, just to become Mormon. Their religions just did not have the concept of "one true church" that would exclude all the truth the person found in other religions. They really believed what Joseph Smith said about accepting truth no matter where you find it, but it was the missionaries who choked on that concept of lots of religions have truth, so you take it where you find it. So, his new converts found truth in Confucius's teachings, so they followed him, they found truth in Buddism, so they followed that, and if they also found truth in Mormonism, why not just join and keep ALL of the truth they had found. As a young missionary, he tried to explain why they had to give up all other religions, and to them, giving up all the truth they had found in those other religions was just wrong. No, you keep all the truth you find and just join this new form of truth also. The concept of ONLY one true religion was just foreign to them.

And giving up tea was giving up breathing, just not going to happen.

[Newme]

Reminds me of Taoism - accepting truths from various religions.
Some eastern ways seem to take in the big picture - wholistic, making Mormonism look so small and lacking. It's like the difference between a bad and good doctor - one treats symptoms with no further questions. The other asks lots of questions- not just about physical health but also psychological and social health, realizing they all influence one another.

[The Beast]

I believe that Mormonism is incompatible with Japanese culture, and I wonder why any Japanese person would join. Many have, but most of those stopped attending soon after baptism.

I have a couple thoughts about the culture and under-utilized temples in Asia. About the tea-drinking culture, my brother went to an asian country on his mission and apparently the WoW is applied differently over there. The missionaries only taught that you can't drink green or red tea, but other teas were fine apparently. Strange since they all come from the leaves of the same plant. It is strange how doctrines accepted in the USA are reinterpreted and applied differently in other countries. I thought God's law was God's law, regardless of Geography.

Regarding temples, I have heard quotes from leaders saying that some temples are built for the millennium. They justify low attendance by telling themselves that they will be utilized more in the millennium so it's no big deal if no one shows up now. This is easier than admitting that they made a mistake building a temple somewhere I guess.

In Korea in the 80s, we taught that only black tea was verboten.