High priest lesson today

[lostinmiddlemormonism]

It was a wonderful time listening to the lesson on virtue. Here were the major takeaways:

1. A woman needs to dress modestly
2. A virtuous woman is without price
3. Too many men today are led into the paths of sin because women aren't being obedient
4. This leads to problems such as STDs and fatherless children

Someone please explain to me again how women are not treated like 2nd class citizens, and that the church doesn't promote patriarchal rape culture, because this lesson about made my head spin. I walked out.

-lost

[StarbucksMom]

Wow. That is really, really bad. I would encourage you to send an email to your bishop & stake president. If you're not comfortable using your name, use a fake email and say you want to remain anonymous. I have done this when I was really upset about something and I actually got a response. (I posted it on the old board a few years ago.)

[Mormorrisey]

I didn't know that was the lesson for today - so glad I wasn't there! And walking out is a completely appropriate response to this stupid nonsense.

My daughter asked me today what a "feminist" response would be to her lesson on modesty. We basically concluded that "true" modesty is empowering, as it allows a woman to dress how she wants to, and not to please a bunch of dudes, nor does she feel any shaming for being fashionable. A great discussion, which led to her complaint that in these kinds of chastity/virtue lessons, women are compared to crushed flowers and chewed up pieces of gum, and what about the men?

Love this kid.

[A New Name]

We had this same lesson today in HPG. I have found that in order to make church tolerable, it takes pre-planning. I knew this lesson was coming up and was prepared.

So in the middle of class I asked "Is it possible to have your virtue taken away by force?" It was the consensus of the class that no, you could not take away virtue by force, that it must be given up freely. So then I asked how they reconcile that with Moroni 9:9, "For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue — "

This caused a lot of discussion, with thoughts that Moroni meant virginity. I said why didn't he say that. Then another guy said JS was influenced by his environment, and the prevailing culture at that time, where a woman's worth is related to her virginity. Lot's of shelf loading discussion.

After class I spoke to the guy who commented about JS being a product of his culture, and told him about the tight vs loose translation, and for JS to be influenced, we had to accept the loose translation, which created other problems.

Overall a good time was had by all (well, I least I was having a good time!)

[Give It Time]

We had this same lesson today in HPG. I have found that in order to make church tolerable, it takes pre-planning. I knew this lesson was coming up and was prepared.

So in the middle of class I asked "Is it possible to have your virtue taken away by force?" It was the consensus of the class that no, you could not take away virtue by force, that it must be given up freely. So then I asked how they reconcile that with Moroni 9:9, "For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue — "

This caused a lot of discussion, with thoughts that Moroni meant virginity. I said why didn't he say that. Then another guy said JS was influenced by his environment, and the prevailing culture at that time, where a woman's worth is related to her virginity. Lot's of shelf loading discussion.

After class I spoke to the guy who commented about JS being a product of his culture, and told him about the tight vs loose translation, and for JS to be influenced, we had to accept the loose translation, which created other problems.

Overall a good time was had by all (well, I least I was having a good time!)

Wow! All of them said that virtue/virginity cannot be taken by force? They're basically saying they don't believe there's such a thing as rape.

[Give It Time]

These are my actual comments on this lesson. It was ours in RS, too. Luckily, I had a migraine and stayed home. However, I kind of wanted to go, because I have a new view of virtue that was budding during my last year's as a TBM.

One of the footnotes to one of the virtue scriptures has as a reference for the word virtue, the word "power". If one looks at it in the context of personal power, it kind of changes things. The "Te" in Tao Te Ching is most frequently translated as "virtue", but it is not understood like virtue in the Abrahamic religion sense. They look at virtue as power, yes, but also by means in which something is able to be done. As in "by virtue of the fact I was there, I was able to help". Virtue is also considered expertise, as in virtuosity.

So, I wanted to go to the lesson and listen to it in the context of these new thoughts. Turns out if one were to just go word for word of the first section of the lesson, it looks like it could translate straight across and actually be an uplifting ten minute segment of the lesson. The rest of the lesson: the intro and all the other segments. Oh my! Now, I will agree about the marital fidelity thing, but President Hinckley states that fidelity and respect are linked when they are not and that statement needs to just die. Anyway, it's lessons like this where I just sit in the class with a look of wonder on my face.

My views have shifted, so much. I've tried to change the discussion, but I now leave the for the Madi Barneys and Elizabeth Smarts of the world. I just sit there and I can see how meaningful this is to those around me and I learn so much about my neighbors by simply listening. If some comment is just too horrendous, that's when I pull out my lovingkindness mantra.

One more thought. On the porn fighting mission thread, Zack talked about mindfulness. I find mindfulness to be a very helpful practice. In fact this lesson touches on this very subject by saying that with discipline and effort we can control our thoughts and actions. Mindfulness would definitely fall under that category. It's so helpful, but it is something that is still culturally stigmatizing and every now and then, I'll come across a snide remark regarding meditation in a conference talk. I think this is wholly unfair. This technique could be taught and practiced in classes.

[moksha]

If all the Nephites were concerned about was virginity, then perhaps they had their own priestly leader system of marrying other men's wives. As long as the leaders concentrated on married women, it would steer them clear of the virgins.

[orangganjil]

Whenever I hear this nonsense taught one my favorite things to quote is this:

And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched. And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me. And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
Luke 8:41-47

So did someone have sex with Jesus? Was he wearing immoral clothing? Or is there a different meaning to the word "virtue" than how we use it in our church?

[A New Name]

Wow! All of them said that virtue/virginity cannot be taken by force? They're basically saying they don't believe there's such a thing as rape.

You are missing the point. Virtue does NOT equal virginity. Elizabeth Smart was no less virtuous after her kidnaping than before.
Moroni/JS conflated the two. They are not the same, and that was my point. Moroni 9:9 is wrong, and the church slowing came to that same conclusion, and removed it from the YW Personal Progress book. Rape does not take away your chastity or virtue.

[Give It Time]

Wow! All of them said that virtue/virginity cannot be taken by force? They're basically saying they don't believe there's such a thing as rape.

You are missing the point. Virtue does NOT equal virginity. Elizabeth Smart was no less virtuous after her kidnaping than before.
Moroni/JS conflated the two. They are not the same, and that was my point. Moroni 9:9 is wrong, and the church slowing came to that same conclusion, and removed it from the YW Personal Progress book. Rape does not take away your chastity or virtue.

My bad.