Both sides pretending

[LostGirl]

Those of you who are still "undercover", do you ever get the feeling that the leadership of the ward know you are pretending and they are just playing along? I am feeling a bit paranoid. I don't see my local leaders as the type to just ignore this kind of issue. But the response to me asking for less responsibility has been met by no questions which seemed very strange.

Obviously I have never been a bishop. Do they tend to ignore people like me as long as we don't make waves?

I am really wondering if I am deluded in thinking that I am just keeping a low profile.

[SaidNobody]

Pretending is a very natural thing. Our true nature is to get what we want. Usually that means playing along, even if we don't believe.

On the other hand, if you are not getting what you want, the lack of commitment can show through to perceptive people. They usually don't call you on it unless it affects them personally, like join investments.

[Give It Time]

I am definitely getting that feeling.

I am at the point where I attend church because doing so feels good. When I've reached the point where staying for another meeting will be detrimental to those good vibes, I go home. There are certain doctrines to which I will no longer give my tacit approval by sitting through a lesson about them. I will never be fully active again.

However, I'm getting the feeling that the bishop and other leaders are on to me. Their many offers for service, I think are a gauge as to how "genuine" I am. Thing is I am genuine. I'm just no longer church broke. I would like to be honest with them and tell them how much of a testimony I do and don't have and how their recent support has helped, but will never restore, but I am very grateful.

I think the Mormon animal is just how it is and if I am not all, I am nothing.

[Mormorrisey]

That's an interesting question and point you raise here, and I have my own theories. I don't ever recall, as a bishop, dealing with someone like me. AT ALL. Now, these were the days before the internet, the Hinckley golden years, and people definitely did not leave or even have questions about church history, because it wasn't readily available. Thus, I think this "disaffection" is a relatively new phenomenon, at least here on the periphery.

However, my experience and what I've seen, is that local leaders generally know NOTHING about the issues, whether historical or the current challenges with the corporate church and its policies. And therefore they just refuse to engage. As long as I don't make too many waves, they are quite content just to ignore the elephant in the room. Even my experience with my HPGL, who was actively trying to get my temple recommend taken away is a great case in point. This is a very respected member in this area, one of the pioneers of the Church in this neck of the woods, and they simply ignored him and refused to pull my recommend. They just don't want the hassle of engagement, where they too might lose their testimonies. Especially with someone who actually knows church history, when they have no clue, and who is rational, matter-of-fact, and not angry or bitter. I don't think you're being paranoid, they just don't want to engage in that kind of critical thinking about the church for their own "salvation"; to me, it's as simple as that.

[No Tof]

This is an interesting situation and I have thought about it for a while too.

When I was a bishop quite a few years ago, I really didn't know about NOM or any such group, although I think there must have been many NOM types that I just wasn't aware of.
Bishops are so busy taking care of the youth, and the widows etc. that there is little time to deal with heretics. If I was aware of someone overtly sinning, I would have visited right away or if I knew of someone in need, help would have been sent, but as far as disbelief or apostasy........ it is so hard to know what is going on. I think unless someone came out and smacked me in the face with a fish of apostasy I wouldn't have recognized the symptoms.

It could have been me. I was so caught up in the whole believing, trying to be perfect, lifestyle I just didn't clue in.

Leadership roulette is king here. You might have a clueless but harmless bishop like I was, or have a Spanish inquisitor type which would search out and expose any heretical source.

I would just lay low and enjoy the fact that you aren't making waves. I have found that this is the most common response from church leadership. Unless you become a John Dehlin, Bill Reel, or another celebrity, it would be rare for a leader to even be aware of your situation.

The dilemma comes IMO,when we are still looking for a reason to believe there is something of substance to the whole idea of inspired leadership. Somewhere in the back of our minds we hope some inspired leader aka our bishop would recognize our faith crisis and come to our rescue. Sadly, I have found in my own case, from both sides of this fence, that the inspiration probably won't come and our dark night of the soul will be dealt with on our own.

Even now despite my apathy towards all things mormon, and my growing sense that HF/HM really don't care and are most likely our best imaginary friends, I on occasion still fall back to wondering why no one came to try to help. Oh well.

As I get further from the center of mormon orthodoxy and come to trust my own sense of what is best for me, peace seeps in and takes the place of the anxiety I used to feel. I trust the same will happen to you if it hasn't already.

Patience brings about the blessings of heaven, I mean life.

[hmb]

I pretend for family. I don't think my true status would shock anyone. In my experience, if you act the part, that's what matters. People are busy; why take on another problem if all appears to be "normal?" I don't think it's laziness (maybe sometimes), but we all know that church responsibility gets to be overwhelming. Pretend and feel guilty. The guilt is already there for never doing enough anyway. At least, that's what I have concluded from my own experiences. I'm just glad that on my end, that guilt is gone.

[Jeffret]

It depends on a lot of different things, but this response is fairly common. My wife and I both saw it to a significant degree as we left the church. The only person who inquired about our leaving, who wanted to know anything more, left herself not all that long after.

People shy away from things that disturb them, that they don't really want to know, that they don't know how to deal with, or that scares them. They'd be happy to bring cookies or something simple, but they don't know what to do with someone going through a faith crisis. Or simply losing interest in the church. Unless you tell them what your issues are. In that case some of them will try to find apologetic answers for you. They'll try to fix it. As long as it is straightforward enough and not too scary.

If you asked for less responsibility, that's a reasonable request. Many church leaders would love to ask for the same. They'll try to honor that request. There are lots of legitimate reasons for that request.

For most people I think it's best not to share much, if anything, about why they're leaving the church, what their issues are. Information is power. If you give your information to church leaders and others, it gives them power to try to fix you, to try to correct your issues. If you don't, they have no idea what to do with you. And they don't really want to know anyway. Too much work. They're too worried about what they might learn.

The only other time I had anyone inquire about my non-attendance was when my wife and kids were still attending. I had agreed to help out by leading my son's cub scout den. (I had a accepted a calling.) I ended up chatting with the bishop after den meeting one time. He asked if I had lost my testimony. I told him that was a very long discussion that we really didn't want to get into. He offered to take the time. I declined. That was it. (It would've been a long discussion. First we would've needed to establish just what a testimony is. That would've taken hours.)

[redjay]

I was pretty open about my lack of belief in the 'one true church', which saw me released from the Bishopric (and called into SS not long after )

So there is some transparency. I also have no TR, not taken from me, just expired, they must know this.

But most leaders in my neck of the woods have inactive family members (often adult children), so I think they are happy enough for me to be there, even if I'm not all in. Now, if I made waves, I think I'd find myself in trouble.

I doubt anyone wants to push the subject, lest they push me out the door (and I take my family with me) and they gain another lost sheep.

Most of my leaders are good people who I like, and I think they quite like me. I'm sincere, they're sincere. There is one who keeps giving it 'you're either all in or you're all out' from the stand' - but that's for another thread.

However, I'm sure I've came up at ward council as a topic - in terms of 'Brother Redjay seems to be struggling'. But no lovebombing or anything.

So, some pretending, but maybe it's right to give people space in the place they are - especially when they are competent and knowledgable. Where does
pretending meet respecting?

[Red Ryder]

Sometimes we overthink this stuff.

It's like being a teenager with a new zit on the forehead and thinking everyone is staring at it when in reality everyone else is walking around with a new zit too.

Try this next week: walk in with your head held high and a smile on your face. Tell yourself it's a beautiful day and you don't give a care about church. Be indifferent to it all. You may find that you have to exist within the walls of the building each week, but that doesn't mean you can't exist elsewhere within the walls of your own head.

As I get further from the center of mormon orthodoxy and come to trust my own sense of what is best for me, peace seeps in and takes the place of the anxiety I used to feel. I trust the same will happen to you if it hasn't already.

^^This will come even as a pretender.

[Corsair]

Obviously I have never been a bishop. Do they tend to ignore people like me as long as we don't make waves?

Yes, sometimes that works for some bishorics. I have been in three different bishoprics and they all have a deep fear of ward members that tell them "No". They have very few means of recourse. There is a fair amount of pressure from the stake to have as many people with temple recommends as they reasonably can. If you give the nine "Yes" and 5 "No" answers you will usually get the temple rec. As long as you are not making waves by publicly proclaiming your appreciation for Ordain Women or Mormon Stories, or the CES Letter they will tend to leave you alone. Staffing a ward is difficult and it annoys various people even when the ward is filled with willing believers.

I am really wondering if I am deluded in thinking that I am just keeping a low profile.

Bishops have so many demands on their time that they prefer the slacker who quietly does some job rather than the mouthy, doctrinaire scriptorian who annoys people by trying to make others interested in their favorite theological topic.

[blazerb]

I am pretty sure that my bishop and SP are aware that I am mentally out. I told my bishop that, for various reasons, my faith is not strong. I have turned down a calling. I'm going to assume they know I'm out. It does not matter to me too much. Eventually, I'll be totally out anyway. If they out me early, I'll just have to deal with the family issues earlier than I had planned.

[LostGirl]

As I get further from the center of mormon orthodoxy and come to trust my own sense of what is best for me, peace seeps in and takes the place of the anxiety I used to feel. I trust the same will happen to you if it hasn't already.

This is me to a T. Except on Sundays - don't enjoy those.

However, my experience and what I've seen, is that local leaders generally know NOTHING about the issues, whether historical or the current challenges with the corporate church and its policies. And therefore they just refuse to engage.

People shy away from things that disturb them, that they don't really want to know, that they don't know how to deal with, or that scares them.

I think you both have a point. There is definitely a fear of delving too deeply into the issues.

So, some pretending, but maybe it's right to give people space in the place they are - especially when they are competent and knowledgable. Where does
pretending meet respecting?

Interesting thought - perhaps for now I can see their lack of overt interest as respecting my space

It's like being a teenager with a new zit on the forehead and thinking everyone is staring at it when in reality everyone else is walking around with a new zit too.

Also an excellent point - sometimes I project my fears onto what I think others are thinking of me.

I feel sort of like I'm in a movie where I'm slowly backing away from a dangerous animal, one step at a time. Trying to move so slowly that they don't notice me. Time will tell whether I can slowly fade into the background. In a way it doesn't feel good that I've gone from being super involved to barely noticeable without anyone paying attention, but that is probably for the best.

[Silver Girl]

When my shelf first started giving way, I began attending only sporadically, and at the time I had a calling that allowed me to don the cloak of invisibility, and I liked that protection. Because I had a really cool HT, I talked to him about my concerns, and it was clear he had some as well, but had put them in a box or something & lived with them. That gave me the freedom to think on my own.

At one point, I was stressed about not showing up very often and was convinced that any minute they'd come after me, which I was not yet prepared to deal with in any way. So I asked my HT if my absence was a problem. HIs answer surprised me - he said he doubted anyone had even noticed! He was in the bishopric, so I felt pretty confident he had a feel for things.

I think my fear of being 'noticed' was possibly a combination of the "zit on the forehead" syndrome, but also part of the conditioning. Years before the shelf gave way, I'd gone through a nasty divorce and even though I attended almost every week, I noticed people hovering around me more, and I noticed if I missed even one week, by late Sunday afternoon or early Monday, my VT had called to check on me. I knew perfectly well that it was to keep me attending, and it annoyed me, but I attributed it to good intentions. So years later, in a different ward, I expected to be stalked a bit when I started missing most Sundays.

I had been "conditioned" to feel someone was watching and I'd be contacted. But of course, it's not a cult...

[MerrieMiss]

Obviously I have never been a bishop. Do they tend to ignore people like me as long as we don't make waves?

Yes, sometimes that works for some bishorics. I have been in three different bishoprics and they all have a deep fear of ward members that tell them "No". They have very few means of recourse. There is a fair amount of pressure from the stake to have as many people with temple recommends as they reasonably can. If you give the nine "Yes" and 5 "No" answers you will usually get the temple rec. As long as you are not making waves by publicly proclaiming your appreciation for Ordain Women or Mormon Stories, or the CES Letter they will tend to leave you alone. Staffing a ward is difficult and it annoys various people even when the ward is filled with willing believers.

I am really wondering if I am deluded in thinking that I am just keeping a low profile.

Bishops have so many demands on their time that they prefer the slacker who quietly does some job rather than the mouthy, doctrinaire scriptorian who annoys people by trying to make others interested in their favorite theological topic.

Yes to all of this. Leadership that wants to delve into people's problems is rare, in my opinion. Most bishops have enough people annoying them with their issues they're grateful for the few who keep quiet and do their job.

I feel sort of like I'm in a movie where I'm slowly backing away from a dangerous animal, one step at a time. Trying to move so slowly that they don't notice me. Time will tell whether I can slowly fade into the background. In a way it doesn't feel good that I've gone from being super involved to barely noticeable without anyone paying attention, but that is probably for the best.

In my old ward, which was very active, young and Utah-like, there were so many people vying for important callings, I was able to fade into the background. It was very comfortable and because that was the ward where I lost my belief, I had a lot of social capital, so no one asked me any questions or bothered me. Had we stayed there, I think very few people would have noticed me leave or come less frequently. I know what you mean about it not feeling good, but it got better with time.

I have to admit however, in this new ward, I’m a little paranoid. It’s a small, older, less active, urban ward that could use a lot of help. I gave a very good talk (I did a lot of public speaking in my job before SAHM), am professional, smart, capable, and while VTing the ladies I was with said surely the RS and YW were arguing over who would get me. This bothered me because about 80% of the callings in the ward I am prepared to say no to, and then I got a very obscure calling, low profile, non-doctrinal, so after a week of consideration I said yes. It’s weird, and I wondered what I did to set off the bishop’s radar, but I honestly think it is nothing and I am paranoid. (Truth is, something flared up in my calling this weekend and I had to take a lot of crap from someone, so the bishop probably wanted someone who would stand their ground or is a masochist. The look on my face every Sunday surely shows how much pain I can take. My husband's asked me before, "Can you try not to look so sick or like you're in pain?" )

[Hagoth]

People shy away from things that disturb them, that they don't really want to know, that they don't know how to deal with, or that scares them.

This is what I think too. Also, they are just crossing their fingers that no one starts making trouble for them. When I came out to my bishop he told me how much he appreciates that I'm not going around trying to ruin the church for everyone else.

And there's always the chance you'll start reading the Book of Mormon and praying more and get yerself fixed.

[Not Buying It]

It is easy to fly under the radar. Unless you start posting stuff on Facebook or making comments in class on Sunday, how would anyone know? Everyone just assumes everyone else believes. Now once you start making comments, people figure out pretty quick there is something going on with you, but they don't have the first clue what to do about it. Most Mormons can't handle un-orthodoxy, they will ignore you because they don't know what else to do. They realize on some level that evidence and logic is not on their side. Only really dumb ones will try and pick a fight, because most of them know they don't have anything other than emotional responses, and those are pretty worthless in a discussion with someone who is being logical.

So, yeah, they may sense something isn't completely "orthodox", but most of them don't know what to do about it. There are jerk bishops who are the exception to this rule - and a lot of them go on to become GAs.

P.S. In my own case I was far too open with ward leadership about my doubts. It's probably more or less an open secret in my ward I think it's all a bunch of BS. There is no confidentiality in the Church, you can never be sure who has discussed what about you that you thought was going to be kept private. Mormons are blabbermouths, for the most part. Jeffret is right, give them as little information as possible, I wish I had taken that approach. My ability to work for positive change in those around me is severely compromised by the way I am regarded by other ward members.

[shadow]

We moved to a new ward within the same stake a couple years ago. I've lucked out on leadership roulette in both places. I had some discussions in my previous ward with the bishop about some of my issues. He understood some of the issues and attempted to give some answers, but acknowledged he didn't have all the answers. He released me from a SS calling when I told him it was too much--causing me too much anxiety. He did so without question. Honestly, just a really great guy, and I feel like he did keep the specifics confidential within the ward.

After we moved, it took a month or two, but my situation was clearly communicated to the new ward. First indication was that my new home teaching assignment silently disappeared in companionship updates.. (My previous EQ president had asked if I wanted a HT assignment, and I had said no.) Not long after we moved, our new ward's bishop moved away. A few month later, I was talking with the new bishop, who wanted to see where I was at with the church because the bishop that had moved had mentioned that I was struggling with my faith. This new bishop is also a great guy and was honestly just trying to figure out how I wanted to be treated from an institutional standpoint - did I want callings, to speak, pray, etc. I told him that I was basically there just to support my family and that I would only consider some of the more secular callings.

This current bishop is a really nice guy and we've been able to establish a friendship based on other things besides the church, even fitting in a round or two of golf in his busy schedule. I think he actually feels safe venting to me a bit about being a bishop. I don't know that it's necessarily a problem, but being so transparent with him about my lack of likely required some communication with other leadership about my level of participation. I understand why that is so, but it does make me paranoid about who has had discussions about my spirituality without my knowledge and whether people treat me differently because of it. I try not to let that bother me, though.

What I worry about is future games of leadership roulette. At a recent ward campout, I was talking with my current bishop. I don't remember how we got on the topic, but my precocious 8 year old son asked the bishop who he voted for for president. Since he knew he was in a safe space, after saying he didn't like talking about politics at church, he said that he didn't vote for our current president. (In case I'm not clear, we're in the USA. That's all that matters in mormonism, right?) He then mentioned how mortified one of our high counselors would be to hear him say that. I realized how lucky I've been playing leadership roulette. We'll see how much I wish I was still pretending if I lose out next time playing.

[Newme]

Well, I suppose it's like someone sleeping can't pretend to be awake... unless they have big eyes and they don't shut all of the way.
I've made comments in church where a NOM would spot me right away- but the same statement goes over every one else's heads.

At times - especially when I first had my faith crisis - I felt a bit paranoid.
Around that time, the bishop called me in for no apparent reason - but it was along with others - and he was lecturing us on not giving him names of people without strong testimonies. (Add to paranoia - check.) And another time - missionaries happened to come by - I guess the RS Pres. was told she had to check on any sisters not visted, and was overwhelmed so asked the missionaries to help her. Strange and awkward though. And I was confronted by bishop in a very harsh manner -was really bad even by TBM standard. Still, considering how much I've criticized the church for teaching distorted thinking & financial corruption - I felt like I had it coming at some point.

But it's subsided - both my paranoia and the weirdness. And new & improved bishops.
I've got a good calling - that fits me well, and yet I feel like I've got boundaries in place -I have said, and will if needed say, no.
And ultimately, God is my god, not the church. I don't go around shouting what I hate about the church - but I also speak up in middle-way manner in church & I settle with conditional friendships in church - I have some more genuine friendships elsewhere.

[moksha]

I have spent enough time in seeing other faith groups in action to realize there is something very cultic in a religious group that wants to control your thoughts to such a degree that they will actually seek to punish you if you fail to properly believe. How medieval of them!!!

When a religious leader accepts you as you are that is normal. Don't look for some underlying pretense in their behavior, since not all Mormons buy into a cultic way of being. The wise thing for any religious leader to do is to love parishioners both coming and going. Spiritual pathways were never meant to be a production line (or have a coin-operated turnstile placed at the entrance).

If you can stack all the economists in the world end to end and still not reach a conclusion, then it seems like folly to ever expect all members of a Church to be uniform in their beliefs.

[No Tof]

I have spent enough time in seeing other faith groups in action to realize there is something very cultic in a religious group that wants to control your thoughts to such a degree that they will actually seek to punish you if you fail to properly believe. How medieval of them!!!

When a religious leader accepts you as you are that is normal. Don't look for some underlying pretense in their behavior, since not all Mormons buy into a cultic way of being. The wise thing for any religious leader to do is to love parishioners both coming and going. Spiritual pathways were never meant to be a production line (or have a coin-operated turnstile placed at the entrance).

If you can stack all the economists in the world end to end and still not reach a conclusion, then it seems like folly to ever expect all members of a Church to be uniform in their beliefs.

Best Sunday sermon I’ve heard in many sundays.