Girl Boy Scouts

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Jeffret
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by Jeffret » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:41 pm

Linked wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm
I've seen a lot of talk of the church leaving BSA over this, but I could see the church adopting it. Maybe I'm out of touch, but I don't think there would be much backlash if the church embraced scouting for girls and put them in their own troops. I'm not saying it will happen, but I don't think it would take long for that to be the new normal, with the 12-13 year old boys and girls doing scouts separately and then after that both leave scouting. Maybe that is why the church is getting rid of the Venturing and Varsity, because they don't want to pay for all those groups and they are going to move the funding to the YW. That would be nice.
That's a fantastic idea. Which is part of the reason why it will never happen. That and the fact that the Church doesn't want the girls to learn the lessons scouting would teach them. Or the boys to learn the lessons that would teach either. The biggest lesson would be that boys and girls are capable of the same things.

(And if it's things they're not both capable of, well we don't really want them doing that as part of scouting.)

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Red Ryder
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:58 pm

Jeffret wrote:That's a fantastic idea. Which is part of the reason why it will never happen.
'Yup!

Plus can you imagine the update to the info graphic GIT posted?

"Scouting supports the Relief Society!"
Elder Nelson seems to have somehow become the mouthpiece of the mouthpiece of God. ~ Hagoth

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Give It Time
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by Give It Time » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:49 pm

blazerb wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:38 am
Give It Time wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:26 pm
mooseman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:03 pm
On the way home, I was listening to Ksl discuss it. One caller mentioned it was "pointless (around here) with the young women's programs" and stated that this "desperate move" to increase membership wouldn't work, asking "why any young girl would be willing to join an organization ran with only old men calling the shots?" I really think the irony was lost on her and show.
:lol:

I might just have to take breaks in writing to laugh. :lol:

Because as more and more girls come in, so will female leaders. There is more chance to see visible female leadership, leading both males and females under this new paradigm. Scouting consciously teaches character attributes. Scouting teaches important life skills. Scouting has merit badges that expose scouts to potential career paths and encourages exploration. The eagle scout award mimics pretty well a real world work situation and what it takes to accomplish a difficult project.

That's why. Better transfer the cookies over. A lot of people will be miffed if they don't. I think the cookies are the real reason they did this.
There are already a lot of female leaders in BSA. I believe one of the LDS members of the board is a member of the general primary presidency, even. Scout camp staffs also include a lot of young women; it may be a majority. I think there won't be much trouble attracting women as members and leaders. Parity could be achieved pretty fast.

I think the biggest culture clash of merging BSA and GSA would be over youth protection. Girl Scouts are way more careful about leader interactions. They don't give carte blanche to chartering organizations to choose their own leaders like BSA does. The church would fight that change with everything they've got, but I don't think they could win. BSA has already put the LDS leaders in their place. Girl Scouts may also be worried about being lost in the merger. I would guess there would have to be a lot of discussion before a merger happens. However, I am sure that BSA would love to have the cookie sales as you note, so Girl Scouts would have some leverage. I say make the change.

It would still be possible to have single sex units if that is needed. BSA could spend some time looking at organizations in other countries to figure out what would work best. It would be challenging, but if no changes are made scouting in the USA will continue to stagnate.
They see leaders that are tangential, rather than direct as soon as they are out of Cubs. There are no female scoutmasters in the church. I'm talking about a woman a scout has to listen to and do what she says.

I've thought about the possibility of Girl Scouts being subsumed, but then I thought about that old saw of how much better and better prepared RS activities and lessons are than men's. The Girl Scouts already put the Boy Scouts away with the cookies. They just might take over Scouting and show the world what it's been missing by making girls secondary.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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moksha
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by moksha » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:49 pm

I think the Church is happy to be out from under the financial commitment to the Boy Scouts.

Church Authorities would have to grit their dentures at the thought of gay and transgendered scouts, but the addition of girls would have been an overwhelming obstacle: If it was supposed to build priesthood character in the boys, then they would also have to contend that the same scouting built a sense of motherhood in the girls. Our Authorities would ultimately look foolish in making such a contention, plus they would perceive it to be a source of empowerment which would lead to the dread feminist outlook for LDS women.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Give It Time
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by Give It Time » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:02 pm

Okay.

Just saying this would be an excellent discussion topic on the now comatose fMh.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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shadow
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by shadow » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:07 pm

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... girls.html

Based on the church's statements, I don't suspect any of their chartered packs/troops will have dens or patrols for girls. What I'm not clear on is whether BSA will require it, or if it will be like the gay leadership scenario, where LDS troops don't really have to follow the same rules because of their religious belief.

I didn't click on the comments to the article to read more, but if the first three shown comments are any indication, this will not be a welcome move among church troops. It really seems that the church and BSA are slowly drifting apart.

I do want to point out another distinction from our discussion here. This isn't a merger between the BSA and the GSA. The Girl Scouts of America is strongly opposed to this move. The BSA is encroaching on their business. There was a bit of a public battle as the BSA was considering this change this past summer. The head of the GSA wrote a strong letter to the head of the BSA. He turned around and publicly said how unprofessional her letter was. Lots of egos and powerful people making a play here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/us/g ... couts.html

Our boys love cub scouts right now. We participate with the ward's pack, but my daughter who just turned 7 might be interested if there were a joint pack. We may be looking elsewhere soon.
"Healing is impossible in loneliness; it is the opposite of loneliness. Conviviality is healing. To be healed we must come with all the other creates to the feast of Creation." --Wendell Berry

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alas
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by alas » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:41 pm

shadow wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:07 pm
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... girls.html

Based on the church's statements, I don't suspect any of their chartered packs/troops will have dens or patrols for girls. What I'm not clear on is whether BSA will require it, or if it will be like the gay leadership scenario, where LDS troops don't really have to follow the same rules because of their religious belief.

I didn't click on the comments to the article to read more, but if the first three shown comments are any indication, this will not be a welcome move among church troops. It really seems that the church and BSA are slowly drifting apart.

I do want to point out another distinction from our discussion here. This isn't a merger between the BSA and the GSA. The Girl Scouts of America is strongly opposed to this move. The BSA is encroaching on their business. There was a bit of a public battle as the BSA was considering this change this past summer. The head of the GSA wrote a strong letter to the head of the BSA. He turned around and publicly said how unprofessional her letter was. Lots of egos and powerful people making a play here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/us/g ... couts.html

Our boys love cub scouts right now. We participate with the ward's pack, but my daughter who just turned 7 might be interested if there were a joint pack. We may be looking elsewhere soon.

That last sentence is key. Parents will be looking for nonLDS troops because girls in the church have envied the activities of cub scouts for ever.

The scout headquarters has said charter groups can choose to allow girls or not, and the church has said not.

So, I think Mormons who have daughters who want to be cub scouts will find a troop that is not LDS. As the LDS troops lose members to nonLDS troops, the church will have more and more trouble maintaining troops. It will eventually die because the LDS program just isn't as good and everybody knows it, but in Utah, LDS troops were pretty much all there was. this will boost nonLDS troops in Utah.

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Give It Time
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by Give It Time » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:52 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:41 pm
shadow wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:07 pm
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... girls.html

Based on the church's statements, I don't suspect any of their chartered packs/troops will have dens or patrols for girls. What I'm not clear on is whether BSA will require it, or if it will be like the gay leadership scenario, where LDS troops don't really have to follow the same rules because of their religious belief.

I didn't click on the comments to the article to read more, but if the first three shown comments are any indication, this will not be a welcome move among church troops. It really seems that the church and BSA are slowly drifting apart.

I do want to point out another distinction from our discussion here. This isn't a merger between the BSA and the GSA. The Girl Scouts of America is strongly opposed to this move. The BSA is encroaching on their business. There was a bit of a public battle as the BSA was considering this change this past summer. The head of the GSA wrote a strong letter to the head of the BSA. He turned around and publicly said how unprofessional her letter was. Lots of egos and powerful people making a play here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/us/g ... couts.html

Our boys love cub scouts right now. We participate with the ward's pack, but my daughter who just turned 7 might be interested if there were a joint pack. We may be looking elsewhere soon.

That last sentence is key. Parents will be looking for nonLDS troops because girls in the church have envied the activities of cub scouts for ever.

The scout headquarters has said charter groups can choose to allow girls or not, and the church has said not.

So, I think Mormons who have daughters who want to be cub scouts will find a troop that is not LDS. As the LDS troops lose members to nonLDS troops, the church will have more and more trouble maintaining troops. It will eventually die because the LDS program just isn't as good and everybody knows it, but in Utah, LDS troops were pretty much all there was. this will boost nonLDS troops in Utah.
When I was a girl, my mother was called to be den mother for my older brother's pack. Finding a regular sitter for me for all those afternoons just seemed ridiculous. So, she sewed me a little uniform--did a mighty fine job--and christened me a den sister. I did everything the boys did and I had a great time! Until pack meetings. They would list off all the things the boys did and give them all patches for their accomplishments. Everyone but me. When I asked where mine was, I was told there wasn't one. I wasn't eligible because I was a girl.

Damn straight the girls want to participate. 'Bout time, too.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

blazerb
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by blazerb » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:17 am

Give It Time wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:49 pm
They see leaders that are tangential, rather than direct as soon as they are out of Cubs. There are no female scoutmasters in the church. I'm talking about a woman a scout has to listen to and do what she says.

I've thought about the possibility of Girl Scouts being subsumed, but then I thought about that old saw of how much better and better prepared RS activities and lessons are than men's. The Girl Scouts already put the Boy Scouts away with the cookies. They just might take over Scouting and show the world what it's been missing by making girls secondary.
You are right, female scoutmasters are not allowed in the church. I don't know if assistant scoutmasters are required to be male now, but I know they weren't always men. My Blazer B leader was a woman, but that was a long time ago. She was awesome, and I did what she said. You are probably right that does not exist today in the church.

I was trying to point out that women are already a strong force in BSA, just not in the church units. I've met several female scoutmasters. If girls are members of the troops, there will be more. I've never known a scoutmaster outside of the church that was not extremely effective at getting the boys to do what they need to. I expect and hope that whatever happens is healthy for the boys and girls that are served.

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Give It Time
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by Give It Time » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:58 pm

blazerb wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:17 am
Give It Time wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:49 pm
They see leaders that are tangential, rather than direct as soon as they are out of Cubs. There are no female scoutmasters in the church. I'm talking about a woman a scout has to listen to and do what she says.

I've thought about the possibility of Girl Scouts being subsumed, but then I thought about that old saw of how much better and better prepared RS activities and lessons are than men's. The Girl Scouts already put the Boy Scouts away with the cookies. They just might take over Scouting and show the world what it's been missing by making girls secondary.
You are right, female scoutmasters are not allowed in the church. I don't know if assistant scoutmasters are required to be male now, but I know they weren't always men. My Blazer B leader was a woman, but that was a long time ago. She was awesome, and I did what she said. You are probably right that does not exist today in the church.

I was trying to point out that women are already a strong force in BSA, just not in the church units. I've met several female scoutmasters. If girls are members of the troops, there will be more. I've never known a scoutmaster outside of the church that was not extremely effective at getting the boys to do what they need to. I expect and hope that whatever happens is healthy for the boys and girls that are served.
Thanks for this, bb. Apparently, your time as a Blazer B was very important.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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foolmeonce
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Re: Girl Boy Scouts

Post by foolmeonce » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:12 pm

EXMO Eagle Scout here:

As a Scout, I was lukewarm on the program but my mother pushed me through and I got my Eagle. As an adult in the church, I really started to dislike the program as it felt uninspired, and diverted a disproportionate amount of resources to boys, and I had to constantly come up with lame a$$ excuses to my daughter who couldn't understand why she had to go to boring achievement days when her little brother got to build cars and go to day-camp.

Fast forward to my post mo days: Skipping the detailed history, I now have my 3 boys in non-LDS Scouts (2 cubs and one boy scout). Out of the BOX BSA is 1000% better in non-LDS packs and troops. You would not believe the power of true volunteerism as opposed to compulsory obedience. Being able to independently align your volunteer hours with your unique skills and interests makes all the difference in the world. Plus supporting organizations that allow you to spend more time with your family not less is amazing. You actually look forward to your calling, instead of dreading it. (Two years in, I've found that getting people to volunteer is harder when you don't have the priesthood stick, but once you get them on board they tend to do a much better job over a much longer period). Then there's the fact that the boys in the organization are there because they like it, not because of compulsion. Long story short, if you like scouts, drop the LDS troop (they're out soon anyway IMO), and find a good troop somewhere else.

In terms of girls joining, I'm REALLY excited about this. The big problem with BSA is it unnecessarily excludes siblings who likely would be great participants. Our pack does a pretty good job of including sisters in big events where we can (family campouts, non-scout heats for pinewood derby, etc.), but it's really hard to ask sisters to sit it out at den meetings. In fact, it's cruel. Next year I'll be the cubmaster for our Pack, and my plan is to follow the "unique girl den rule" on paper, then just have combined Den meetings. Yes, there is going to be a lot of details for BSA to work through, but this is a great thing for Scouting. When I first heard about the LDS Church's plan for a slow tracked exit from Scouts, at first I was pissed, then I was happy. Getting the bigots off the board will be the best thing for BSA (hopefully SA in the not-so distant future).
Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

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