Postmodernism anybody?

[Jeffret]

Yes. Unless Newme is a sock puppet, she is female according to her introductory post.

Hello,

<snip>

....My husband is quite TBM and many of my family and friends are.

<snip>

Given Newme's comments on this thread, I'd have to say the other explanation is unlikely.

[AllieOop]

Maybe I should be less blunt and forceful.

Nope, you're expressing yourself well and I appreciate all the time you're spending to respond here on this thread. Thanks.

[Mormorrisey]

I feel this is a re-edited version of that Lambchop classic, "this is the thread that never ends..."

[Jeffret]

Maybe I should be less blunt and forceful.

Nope, you're expressing yourself well and I appreciate all the time you're spending to respond here on this thread. Thanks.

Maybe you shouldn't encourage me like that. I might just write some more.

Actually, I had already started looking back through the whole thread to see if there was anything else interesting. I did find a number of interesting enlightening points shared by respondents, particularly for the brief time the thread managed to stay at least nominally about post-modernism. It started out having nothing really to do with post-modernism, only a crude, inaccurate caricature, but some of the respondents managed to bring it back around to some good stuff. Unfortunately, they couldn't keep it to that level in the face of the onslaught of false information, bigotry, contrived research, and hate. All wrapped up in a barrage of shifting allegations and illogic.

I started looking up more of the references or quotes to see if there was more that it would be worthwhile to evaluate, possibly to learn from or more likely to refute. It's a sorry lot of bigots, Nazis, SPCL-monitored hate groups, old obscure writings, misinterpretations, lies, and terribly contorted research. It's kind of like a Gish Gallup, with no reality or relationship between the various points. I wouldn't mind addressing any of the individual points but as soon as you attempt that you're met with inaccurate allegations and more inaccurate or irrelevant claims.

[Wonderment]

Actually, I had already started looking back through the whole thread to see if there was anything else interesting. I did find a number of interesting enlightening points shared by respondents, particularly for the brief time the thread managed to stay at least nominally about post-modernism. It started out having nothing really to do with post-modernism, only a crude, inaccurate caricature, but some of the respondents managed to bring it back around to some good stuff. Unfortunately, they couldn't keep it to that level in the face of the onslaught of false information, bigotry, contrived research, and hate. All wrapped up in a barrage of shifting allegations and illogic.

I started looking up more of the references or quotes to see if there was more that it would be worthwhile to evaluate, possibly to learn from or more likely to refute. It's a sorry lot of bigots, Nazis, SPCL-monitored hate groups, old obscure writings, misinterpretations, lies, and terribly contorted research. It's kind of like a Gish Gallup, with no reality or relationship between the various points. I wouldn't mind addressing any of the individual points but as soon as you attempt that you're met with inaccurate allegations and more inaccurate or irrelevant claims.

Jeffret. Thank you for your patient, very articulate, very well-informed and well-organized messages. Much appreciated.-- Wndr.

Bigotry is never a pleasant topic; and you've successfully managed to reply to the OP's bigotry with grace and tact.

[wtfluff]

...

I started looking up more of the references or quotes to see if there was more that it would be worthwhile to evaluate, possibly to learn from or more likely to refute. It's a sorry lot of bigots, Nazis, SPCL-monitored hate groups, old obscure writings, misinterpretations, lies, and terribly contorted research. It's kind of like a Gish Gallup, with no reality or relationship between the various points. I wouldn't mind addressing any of the individual points but as soon as you attempt that you're met with inaccurate allegations and more inaccurate or irrelevant claims.

TIL what Gish Galloping is.

[Jeffret]

(It's beginning to look like maybe I will write some more. Discussion in another thread got me thinking along the lines of something that better fits here.)

If I may, I'd like to leave behind a little bit the strict search for facts, data, and science and return more to where this thread allegedly started. I'd like to return to philosophy and meta-physics to see if I can draw out some ideas that can help us understand both ends, the science and the philosophy.

Maybe it's just my own weaknesses or lack of study, but I find it difficult to pin down exactly what postmodernism is. There seems to be a vagueness about exactly what constitutes post-modernism. I suspect that may be inherent in postmodernism -- the same deconstruction and complexities that are involved in postmodernist considerations make it difficult to define exactly what postmodernism itself is. It may also be that postmodernism is one of those things that can only be clearly defined in hindsight. These complexities are why postmodernism is too often described in caricature or misinterpretation, as occurred at the start of this thread.

The Wikipedia article on postmodernism talks about how it relates to philosophy, art, theatre, psychology, sociology, political science, and criticism. I believe, though, that it reaches far beyond those areas into our fundamental understandings of how things work, of how nature works, and how we fit into it all. We perceive reality through a postmodernist lens because our understanding of the universe has been shown to be postmodernist. Now, it's certainly true, as some amply demonstrate, that not everyone sees through a postmodernist lens. Some people fervently adhere to earlier understandings of the world, attempting to insist on their interpretations in spite of increased data and understanding. But as a whole, much of our best understanding of the universe is postmodernist in essence.

In earlier times, scientists assumed that as they got better and better studies, better and better sensors, and better and better scientific models their understanding would keep getting better and better, more accurate, more complete, and more certain. Meteorologists believed that as they got more and better weather sensors and better scientific models their ability to predict the weather would continue to improve. Physicists believed that as they got better sensors, they would be able to track and predict the motion of objects more and more precisely. Cosmologists believed that as they got better telescopes and other equipment they would be able to more precisely observe the nature of the universe. And on and on.

Unfortunately for these aims, reality got in the way, as involved in a number of significant, revolutionary scientific principles. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and other aspects of Quantum Mechanics got in the way, demonstrating fundamental limitations in just how much we can know about object motion. Chaos Theory taught us about the impact of a butterfly flapping its wings in Japan on U.S. weather. Einstein showed us that space and time are warped and related and that energy and matter are intimately related.

Discoveries in biology also messed with our sense of certainty and clarity. Evolution is certainly a big one, disrupting our sense of who we are our importance in the universe. As I quoted in another thread, “The belief that Homo sapiens is absolutely dimorphic with the respect to sex chromosome composition, gonadal structure, hormone levels, and the structure of the internal genital duct systems and external genitalia, derives from the platonic ideal that for each sex there is a single, universally correct developmental pathway and outcome." After the discovery of DNA and chromosomes, people assumed that once we fully understood and mapped chromosomes we would have an exact understanding. Unfortunately that didn't work out and we've learned how inexact that is. Most people are at least vaguely aware of the XX / XY chromosome arrangements and their significant impacts on people. Once scientists figured these out, we thought we had a certain, confident understanding of what constitutes a man and woman. Unfortunately again, nature wasn't cooperating with our desires and expectations. Nature, to our consternation, yields XXY and a number of other variations.

As Newme stated on another thread, "A person is born a male or female - with corresponding chromosomes that do not change". This is the simplistic ideal, or as in the quote above, the platonic ideal. But nature is weirder that we ever imagined. We imagined dragons but we never imagined time distortion and an expanding universe and empty atoms. We thought that there were just two sexes, but reality demonstrates otherwise. And when it comes to other animals, sometimes the situation is quite weird. We thought that sexual attraction was purely hetero, but reality is much more varied and fluid.

Our fundamental understanding of nature and the universe is significantly postmodernist. We've had to abandon our former certainty as it became clear to us that reality didn't support it. In many disciplines, scientists have struggled to accept the ideas reality has forced upon them. As societies and as people we've faced the same things.

[Newme]

Bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

Ie: Leftist Antifa:

[Jeffret]

Yeah, the usual insult, "you're intolerant because you won't tolerate our intolerance" is pretty ridiculous. The flaws in that one run deep.

[Wonderment]

I doubt that anyone here has any connection whatsoever to antifa.

But your hostility to people based on their sexual orientation really is a sign of bigotry, and you need to take a look at why that's happening. -- Wndr.

[Newme]

I doubt that anyone here has any connection whatsoever to antifa.

But your hostility to people based on their sexual orientation really is a sign of bigotry, and you need to take a look at why that's happening. -- Wndr.

Where did I suggest that anyone here is part of Antifa? It’s more like a warning of where extreme leftists ideologies have gone.

Also, please quote exactly what I stated about those with homosexual preferences that was factually incorrect. You can’t. You are simply trying to put me down for stating facts you don’t like. You seemed so nice until you saw others putting me down & you decided to join and ironically (hypocritically) called me “bigot” because I don’t think as you do. Please look up bigotry in a dictionary.

[Newme]

Christian Artists Must Make Same-Sex Wedding Invitations, Arizona Judge Rules
https://www.christianpost.com/news/evan ... es-204643/

Homosexual “rights” are destroying others’ rights:
https://youtu.be/WECjvFrXQwI

[dogbite]

Do you know what a public accommodation is? Do you know the laws and the reasons for those laws regarding public accommodation?

The rights you claim to assert are not recognized as rights of a public accommodation.

Further the business isn't religious. It's a separate entity from the people employed or who own the business. The business doesn't have the rights you claim are being repressed. The contract is with the business, not the people who work for or, generally, who own the business. People incorporate to separate personal liability from their business liability. There are other separations tied to that incorporation such as those involved with being a public accommodation.

And I'm very much against the personhood of businesses.

[Jeffret]

Please see off-topic responses in other thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2278&p=27742#p27741

[Wonderment]

I doubt that anyone here has any connection whatsoever to antifa.

But your hostility to people based on their sexual orientation really is a sign of bigotry, and you need to take a look at why that's happening. -- Wndr.

Where did I suggest that anyone here is part of Antifa? It’s more like a warning of where extreme leftists ideologies have gone.

Also, please quote exactly what I stated about those with homosexual preferences that was factually incorrect. You can’t. You are simply trying to put me down for stating facts you don’t like. You seemed so nice until you saw others putting me down & you decided to join and ironically (hypocritically) called me “bigot” because I don’t think as you do. Please look up bigotry in a dictionary.

Well --- I AM a nice person, and so is most everyone here. After all, we are all raised to be "nice" and to avoid contention at all costs. If I weren't nice, I would have become really contentious with you, and I actually kept the level of discourse calm, so the conversation didn't go off the rails.

But, all the perjorative claims that you have made about gay people have been refuted by Jeffret and others. Go back and read what he wrote in regards to the stereotypes that you put forth. Those old false beliefs are what causes so much grief and depression for gay people. It's what causes the social ostracizing and stigmatizing of gay people.

I live in California, and 9 years ago, during the Proposition 8 campaign, the rhetoric against gay people was very intense -- and that was funded by over $30,000,000 donated by Mormons from many states outside California. So, when these old myths and bigoted thoughts come up again, I'm reminded of the animosity that came up in 2008. It was a sad time, and when you make these remarks against gay people, it reminds me of the sadness and the persecution.

[CaptainSalty]

As Hagoth stated above, it's time to move on. This post is no longer productive so it's now locked.