Paradox or Problem

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Post Reply
User avatar
Linked
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Paradox or Problem

Post by Linked » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:35 am

Why not both?

I was listening to How We Love on TED Radio Hour and one of the people they highlighted (about minutes 28-30 of the program) was talking about the marriage relationship and love and sex. She suggested that modern marriages are expected to be more than they used to, and require spouses to be many things for each other that they didn't used to. In the past it was enough for a marriage to enable economic stability and produce children, but today we want our spouse to also be our best friend and lover and person who surprises us. It can be hard to be both reliable and surprising.
Give me comfort give me edge, give me novelty give me familiarity, give me predictability give me surprise; and we think it's a given and [that] toys and lingerie are going to save us...
She is a relationship and sex therapist and has people ask her how to fix the problems in their marriage which are caused by this paradox. But she suggests that we should focus on managing the paradox rather than fix the problem.
More a paradox that we manage and less a problem that we solve.
I also like that paradigm for dealing with the relationship issues that arise in life after a transition away from mormonism. Leaving mormonism seriously complicates relationships with the TBMs in one's life. We still keep feelings and memories and scheduled dinners with parents, siblings, friends, kids, and spouses. But the relationship changes once they know we don't share their beliefs anymore. The interactions are different. In some cases one or both sides do mean things to each other. TBMs have negative feelings toward "apostates" and transitioned mormons have negative feelings toward TBMs.

In some cases there are certainly problems to be solved. No one should allow themselves to be emotionally abused. Sometimes boundaries must be erected and enforced. But other times it can be more about managing the paradox of the relationship. Skip a scheduled dinner occasionally if needed. Spend extra time together if it is mutually beneficial. And move forward knowing you are doing the best you can.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
Random
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by Random » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:46 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:35 am
She suggested that modern marriages are expected to be more than they used to, and require spouses to be many things for each other that they didn't used to. In the past it was enough for a marriage to enable economic stability and produce children, but today we want our spouse to also be our best friend and lover and person who surprises us. It can be hard to be both reliable and surprising.
I think she has a point here. It isn't something I've really thought about before I read your post, but it's possible that we are putting our spouses into a no-win situation with our views on marriage and what a spouse is supposed to do for us.

I do think there should be love and friendship, a respect for each other, and good communication (whereas, in some cultures in the past [don't know about the present] arranged marriages were common and the bride and groom may have never met before - or they just got married for practical purposes, totally ignoring the emotional aspects/needs humans have).
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 2541
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by Corsair » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:52 am

Linked wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:35 am
She suggested that modern marriages are expected to be more than they used to, and require spouses to be many things for each other that they didn't used to. In the past it was enough for a marriage to enable economic stability and produce children, but today we want our spouse to also be our best friend and lover and person who surprises us. It can be hard to be both reliable and surprising.
It is ideas like this that convince me to be extra compassionate towards the believer I remain married to.

Kishkumen
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:39 pm

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by Kishkumen » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:55 pm

I wonder....

I agree, more is asked out of each partner in a marriage today than before.

Is this support of evolution ?

We do more in our existence lives than before. Now we do more in our relationships than before.

Is increased demand on our mental/emotional capacity driving an evolution in our ability to adapt to this demand?

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by Linked » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:04 pm

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:55 pm
I wonder....

I agree, more is asked out of each partner in a marriage today than before.

Is this support of evolution ?

We do more in our existence lives than before. Now we do more in our relationships than before.

Is increased demand on our mental/emotional capacity driving an evolution in our ability to adapt to this demand?
Interesting question.

My gut reaction is that the time scale where relationships have been more demanding is too short and that the mental/emotional capacity that these relationships demand comes after the opportunity to pass ones genes on, so it wouldn't affect things on the scale of evolution. Also, I don't know if it is a specific enough squeeze; it's not like a virus that kills everyone that doesn't have the right genes or a predator that kills those who don't have the endurance to run away.

I suspect that we developed the mental and emotional capacities we use in our current relationships during lean times hundreds of thousands of years ago when strong relationships were the difference between survival and death.

But that may be short sighted.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
RubinHighlander
Posts: 1354
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:22 pm

Linked wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:04 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:55 pm
I wonder....

I agree, more is asked out of each partner in a marriage today than before.

Is this support of evolution ?

We do more in our existence lives than before. Now we do more in our relationships than before.

Is increased demand on our mental/emotional capacity driving an evolution in our ability to adapt to this demand?
Interesting question.

My gut reaction is that the time scale where relationships have been more demanding is too short and that the mental/emotional capacity that these relationships demand comes after the opportunity to pass ones genes on, so it wouldn't affect things on the scale of evolution. Also, I don't know if it is a specific enough squeeze; it's not like a virus that kills everyone that doesn't have the right genes or a predator that kills those who don't have the endurance to run away.

I suspect that we developed the mental and emotional capacities we use in our current relationships during lean times hundreds of thousands of years ago when strong relationships were the difference between survival and death.

But that may be short sighted.
Adaptation can happen in only a few generations, at least in foxes:

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160912 ... -the-world

Although I agree that on a grand evolutionary scale it may seem like we don't have enough time to really know what these changes are, trends or evolution. But there are changes to each generation's behaviors that seem to be trending toward evolutionary changes. We've also seen life spans extended and socially we are witnessing the decline of most older religions with an increased access to education. Tribalism seems to be running just as strong as ever, as evidenced by our political systems and trends like Flat Earthers. I think the human brain is capable of adjusting to the new relationship expectations overall, although many will fall by the wayside; but that's just evolution!

And with that, I leave you with Cake Thrills:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bz0-5nKnX4O/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MizOftmSc7k

Man is born
Man lives
Man does
And it's all vanity
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

Kishkumen
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:39 pm

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by Kishkumen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:43 pm

Linked wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:04 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:55 pm
I wonder....

I agree, more is asked out of each partner in a marriage today than before.

Is this support of evolution ?

We do more in our existence lives than before. Now we do more in our relationships than before.

Is increased demand on our mental/emotional capacity driving an evolution in our ability to adapt to this demand?
Interesting question.

My gut reaction is that the time scale where relationships have been more demanding is too short and that the mental/emotional capacity that these relationships demand comes after the opportunity to pass ones genes on, so it wouldn't affect things on the scale of evolution. Also, I don't know if it is a specific enough squeeze; it's not like a virus that kills everyone that doesn't have the right genes or a predator that kills those who don't have the endurance to run away.

I suspect that we developed the mental and emotional capacities we use in our current relationships during lean times hundreds of thousands of years ago when strong relationships were the difference between survival and death.

But that may be short sighted.
Sometimes evolutionary catalysts are slow moving - Volcano forming into an island and new species living there
Sometimes evolutionary catalysts are rapid - Some moth in Europe evolved from white with black dots to black with white dots. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

The time scale of more demanding relationships has been relatively short. I suggest this is why relationships are hard right now. We are in the middle of the evolutionary process to figure out how to adapt. It's not enough of a change in the environment to kill us, however not enough time has passed to evolve the brain pre-programing with the innate ability to better handle emotional and physical relationships. Survival of the fittest my take some time to resolve.

Perhaps I'm going down a false rabbit hole.

Kishkumen
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:39 pm

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by Kishkumen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:45 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:22 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MizOftmSc7k

Man is born
Man lives
Man does
And it's all vanity
This would be amazing to listen/watch while high. Adding it to my to-do list.

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by Linked » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:08 am

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:43 pm
Sometimes evolutionary catalysts are slow moving - Volcano forming into an island and new species living there
Sometimes evolutionary catalysts are rapid - Some moth in Europe evolved from white with black dots to black with white dots. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

The time scale of more demanding relationships has been relatively short. I suggest this is why relationships are hard right now. We are in the middle of the evolutionary process to figure out how to adapt. It's not enough of a change in the environment to kill us, however not enough time has passed to evolve the brain pre-programing with the innate ability to better handle emotional and physical relationships. Survival of the fittest my take some time to resolve.

Perhaps I'm going down a false rabbit hole.
The peppered moth example highlights the need for a life or death mutation; the moths that were white were easily spotted against the trees blackened by pollution and eaten by birds.

But I am not an expert in evolution, so I could be way off. Natural selection for humans is all sorts of broken since we have figured out how to keep even the least fit people alive. (I think this is a good thing, it just changes the rules of selection)
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by deacon blues » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:27 am

I have wondered if the LDS Church could be a mechanism for selective breeding. I'm not sure if it would be for the better or the worse. The article about breeding domesticated foxes is fascinating and definitely contains seeds for thought.
God is Love. God is Truth

User avatar
Emower
Posts: 885
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by Emower » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:12 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:35 am
She is a relationship and sex therapist and has people ask her how to fix the problems in their marriage which are caused by this paradox. But she suggests that we should focus on managing the paradox rather than fix the problem.
More a paradox that we manage and less a problem that we solve.
I think that is pretty profound. There is a ton to think about in that thought process, and like Corsair, I would echo that it should motivate all of us to show more empathy towards those in our lives that are involved with the paradox. I certainly have experienced that me trying to "solve" my mixed faith marriage was not going well.
RubinHighlander wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:22 pm
Linked wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:04 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:55 pm
I wonder....

I agree, more is asked out of each partner in a marriage today than before.

Is this support of evolution ?

We do more in our existence lives than before. Now we do more in our relationships than before.

Is increased demand on our mental/emotional capacity driving an evolution in our ability to adapt to this demand?
Interesting question.

My gut reaction is that the time scale where relationships have been more demanding is too short and that the mental/emotional capacity that these relationships demand comes after the opportunity to pass ones genes on, so it wouldn't affect things on the scale of evolution. Also, I don't know if it is a specific enough squeeze; it's not like a virus that kills everyone that doesn't have the right genes or a predator that kills those who don't have the endurance to run away.

I suspect that we developed the mental and emotional capacities we use in our current relationships during lean times hundreds of thousands of years ago when strong relationships were the difference between survival and death.

But that may be short sighted.
Adaptation can happen in only a few generations, at least in foxes:

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160912 ... -the-world

Although I agree that on a grand evolutionary scale it may seem like we don't have enough time to really know what these changes are, trends or evolution. But there are changes to each generation's behaviors that seem to be trending toward evolutionary changes. We've also seen life spans extended and socially we are witnessing the decline of most older religions with an increased access to education. Tribalism seems to be running just as strong as ever, as evidenced by our political systems and trends like Flat Earthers. I think the human brain is capable of adjusting to the new relationship expectations overall, although many will fall by the wayside; but that's just evolution!

And with that, I leave you with Cake Thrills:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bz0-5nKnX4O/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MizOftmSc7k

Man is born
Man lives
Man does
And it's all vanity
I dont think relationships can be modeled through classical evolution theory too well, that is more the purview of Game Theory.

Fascinating link to an article about evolutionary game theory and relationships:
http://news.mit.edu/2017/using-evolutio ... tions-0105

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by Linked » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:10 pm

Emower wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:12 pm
Linked wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:35 am
She is a relationship and sex therapist and has people ask her how to fix the problems in their marriage which are caused by this paradox. But she suggests that we should focus on managing the paradox rather than fix the problem.
More a paradox that we manage and less a problem that we solve.
I think that is pretty profound. There is a ton to think about in that thought process, and like Corsair, I would echo that it should motivate all of us to show more empathy towards those in our lives that are involved with the paradox. I certainly have experienced that me trying to "solve" my mixed faith marriage was not going well.
Thanks for the validation, I felt like it was a profoundly different approach that could help handle a mixed faith life more openly.

I'll read the link you posted shortly.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
alas
Posts: 1162
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Paradox or Problem

Post by alas » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:11 pm

I think in part we are solving the “problem part” of this with our modern mate selection process. Back in the day when less was expected of marriage, your partner was most likely selected for you by your parents. So, love, companionship, best friends, lovers, as well as co-parent were not really expected. But now we marry for love, so couples expect to be lovers. We often get to be friends or start dating after a friendship is formed just as part of courtship. We kind of pick our partners according to our expectations, so no wonder we have high expectations. I don’t think this is bad, but I do think some people marry for lust at 20 something and then when the sex drive goes down with three toddlers and “I am too tired,” we women wonder about about the coparenting part, with the wife feeling overwhelmed and why won’t he do his share of parenting, while he is wondering what happened to the lover’s part. Or they reach their 50s and wish they had been smarter about the best friends part. So, yes it can be a problem for those who don’t choose wisely. For others of us it works out great and we live happily ever after.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests