MLK Jr.

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Linked
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MLK Jr.

Post by Linked » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:02 pm

I had the privilege of flying to the South and watching BYU come back and beat the Tennessee Volunteers in a football game last weekend. Go cougars.

I had a few hours in Atlanta so I stopped by the Martin Luther King, Jr. National Historical Park. It was moving to read the stories of the struggles of African Americans at the time and interesting to read how MLK Jr. approached leading a movement to improve the situation and increase civil rights. The non-violent protests were an effective tool to get the needed coverage of the issues. The thing that struck most was how he framed the problem as a fight between justice and injustice, rather than between black and white.

By framing it as justice vs. injustice it made the tent big enough for anyone sympathetic to the movement. You could be a white woman in Mobile, Alabama and be behind the just civil rights movement. You could change your stripes if you realized that what you had believed was unjust.

I wonder how this can be applied to the rift between believing and non-believing mormons. Perhaps the battle should be couched as love vs. hate; like activists for LGBTQ+ tend to do. (ETA: As opposed to mormon vs. exmormon) Or honest vs. dishonest. Most believing mormons prize honesty and believe that their church is honest when it is actually a grossly deceitful organization. Drive a wedge between believing mormon's self image and their church where keeping what they know is good forces them to confront their support of the mormon church.

It is interesting how similar this is to the "love the sinner hate the sin" rhetoric; a hurtful phrase I don't like. Is the only difference that I believe that the mormon church's dishonesty is evil, and mormons believe someone who drinks coffee is evil? Who is to say who is right?
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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alas
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by alas » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:45 pm

Linked wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:02 pm
I had the privilege of flying to the South and watching BYU come back and beat the Tennessee Volunteers in a football game last weekend. Go cougars.

I had a few hours in Atlanta so I stopped by the Martin Luther King, Jr. National Historical Park. It was moving to read the stories of the struggles of African Americans at the time and interesting to read how MLK Jr. approached leading a movement to improve the situation and increase civil rights. The non-violent protests were an effective tool to get the needed coverage of the issues. The thing that struck most was how he framed the problem as a fight between justice and injustice, rather than between black and white.

By framing it as justice vs. injustice it made the tent big enough for anyone sympathetic to the movement. You could be a white woman in Mobile, Alabama and be behind the just civil rights movement. You could change your stripes if you realized that what you had believed was unjust.

I wonder how this can be applied to the rift between believing and non-believing mormons. Perhaps the battle should be couched as love vs. hate; like activists for LGBTQ+ tend to do. (ETA: As opposed to mormon vs. exmormon) Or honest vs. dishonest. Most believing mormons prize honesty and believe that their church is honest when it is actually a grossly deceitful organization. Drive a wedge between believing mormon's self image and their church where keeping what they know is good forces them to confront their support of the mormon church.

It is interesting how similar this is to the "love the sinner hate the sin" rhetoric; a hurtful phrase I don't like. Is the only difference that I believe that the mormon church's dishonesty is evil, and mormons believe someone who drinks coffee is evil? Who is to say who is right?
I like saying it a way that doesn’t make them wrong or bad and me correct and good. So, I use, “the church doesn’t work for me. It works for lots of people. It works for my husband. But it just doesn’t work for me.” If they ask what I mean, I ask them “what is the first, most important thing a church should teach?” Most of them give some kind of answer about God loves us. Then I just say that the Mormon church taught me by how it treats people just the opposite. They go, “what!?!” And I just say, “yeah.” No one has pushed past that, but if they did, I can just say I grew up in the 60s and saw how the church treated people with African ancestry, I saw the church fight against rights for women in their campaign against the ERA. I see how the church treats women now. I see how the church treats gays, transgender people, anyone it does not understand. I needs a church that behaves as if we are all children of God and he loves all of us. I need a church that is honest about its history, open about it finances, teaches that God loves us unconditionally, not a guy who calls himself a prophet yet teaches that God’s love is conditional. I need a church that doesn’t use shame as motivation. I need a church that accepts what scientists say, because as Joseph Smith said, all truth is part of our religion. I need a church that teaches respect for this earth God made for us, and works to protect this earth as if it is the only one we ever get. Do you want me to continue?

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Linked
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by Linked » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:04 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:45 pm
I like saying it a way that doesn’t make them wrong or bad and me correct and good. So, I use, “the church doesn’t work for me. It works for lots of people. It works for my husband. But it just doesn’t work for me.” If they ask what I mean, I ask them “what is the first, most important thing a church should teach?” Most of them give some kind of answer about God loves us. Then I just say that the Mormon church taught me by how it treats people just the opposite. They go, “what!?!” And I just say, “yeah.” No one has pushed past that, but if they did, I can just say I grew up in the 60s and saw how the church treated people with African ancestry, I saw the church fight against rights for women in their campaign against the ERA. I see how the church treats women now. I see how the church treats gays, transgender people, anyone it does not understand. I needs a church that behaves as if we are all children of God and he loves all of us. I need a church that is honest about its history, open about it finances, teaches that God loves us unconditionally, not a guy who calls himself a prophet yet teaches that God’s love is conditional. I need a church that doesn’t use shame as motivation. I need a church that accepts what scientists say, because as Joseph Smith said, all truth is part of our religion. I need a church that teaches respect for this earth God made for us, and works to protect this earth as if it is the only one we ever get. Do you want me to continue?
I see what you mean about not using a phrase that casts one side as good and the other bad. It keeps the peace. For the civil rights movement it was pretty clear to a 3rd party that there was a moral side and an immoral side. I think there is a similar moral divide on many church issues, and I think that it could be a good tactic to embrace the moral upper hand over church teachings. Embrace the honesty that it took to deny our indoctrination. Embrace your equal and unconditional love of all humankind and desire for fairness. Embrace your love of transparency. Embrace shame-free, wholehearted living. Embrace the truth that science has uncovered. Loudly and publicly.

And let the church stand in stark contrast to your shining light.

It will piss off a lot of believing mormons, like MLK Jr. angered those who disagreed with him. He was quite unpopular before he died, partially because he highlighted the issues of racism in Chicago, the plight of those in poverty in America, and he took a stance against the war in Vietnam. But in my opinion history has proven him right in all of those cases, along with his main work with civil rights.

I'm not sure if it is worth doing, but if change were the goal then I think more aggressive tactics are required. MLK Jr's non-violent protests weren't violent, but they were disruptive and in-your-face.

I don't have a grand plan or even details on what I think should be changed, these were just some thoughts from seeing the memorial. Thanks for adding your comments.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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crossmyheart
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by crossmyheart » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:38 am

Linked wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:04 pm

I'm not sure if it is worth doing, but if change were the goal then I think more aggressive tactics are required. MLK Jr's non-violent protests weren't violent, but they were disruptive and in-your-face.

I don't have a grand plan or even details on what I think should be changed, these were just some thoughts from seeing the memorial. Thanks for adding your comments.
In a way this is already happening- The march to temple square before the priesthood session led to women being allowed to view it. And maybe even influenced more women being able to give GC session prayers. And eventually the changes in the women's broadcast scheduling.

Sam Young's march led to the changes in bishop interviews and the online training.

Perhaps a few more years of PRIDE marches may turn the tide there as well.

Blashyrkh
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by Blashyrkh » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:16 am

crossmyheart wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:38 am
Linked wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:04 pm

I'm not sure if it is worth doing, but if change were the goal then I think more aggressive tactics are required. MLK Jr's non-violent protests weren't violent, but they were disruptive and in-your-face.

I don't have a grand plan or even details on what I think should be changed, these were just some thoughts from seeing the memorial. Thanks for adding your comments.
In a way this is already happening- The march to temple square before the priesthood session led to women being allowed to view it. And maybe even influenced more women being able to give GC session prayers. And eventually the changes in the women's broadcast scheduling.

Sam Young's march led to the changes in bishop interviews and the online training.

Perhaps a few more years of PRIDE marches may turn the tide there as well.
Why must you insist on turning the tide on a group you clearly don't agree with? If the LDS church wants to exclude LGBTQ people then let them. That's in their belief system. If the KKK wants to exclude minorities that's none of my business. If Bass fishermen of America want to exclude trout fishermen then that's their business. Why must you force your opinions and beliefs on another group? If you don't like it then don't support/associate with them but for heaven's sake let people believe what they want. Who knows. One day the tide of society may turn and you may be forced to change your beliefs or else...

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Just This Guy
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:19 am

I don't know who said it originally, but this is a good description of personal opinions.
"Your right to an opinion ends at the tip of my nose. You can throw a punch at me all you want, but if it connects, we have a problem."

Out of the groups you cite, to what extent do they push their opinions on the other group?

The fisherman disagreement likely won' go very far beyond some light trash talking. The KKK had a history of lynching, assault, murder, abuse, and terrorism. Anti-LGBT activists actively push to pass laws to deny rights to people they don't like. That is a MAJOR difference in scale.

When the KKK is able to have their racist opinions without trying to force people to comply to their world view...
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Linked
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by Linked » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:20 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:16 am
Why must you insist on turning the tide on a group you clearly don't agree with? ...
Because they brainwashed me and lied to me. They hurt me. They stole my self from me.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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alas
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by alas » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:16 am

Linked wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:20 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:16 am
Why must you insist on turning the tide on a group you clearly don't agree with? ...
Because they brainwashed me and lied to me. They hurt me. They stole my self from me.
Because they teach mothers to despise their lesbian daughter. My niece had to cut off all relations with her family of origin because her homophobia mother had been taught that being gay is a choice, and a choice that makes you a terrible evil person. When her brothers and sisters joined in the shaming and persecution, she had to cut then out to protect herself and her wife and their children from constant nasty comments. The church tries to take away rights from other people. So, yes, I want to change the church to make them leave my daughter and my niece alone. If they left others alone, then I would feel fine about leaving them alone. But their persecution of people I love give me the right to make every effort to make them leave those I love alone.

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alas
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by alas » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:28 am

alas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:16 am
Linked wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:20 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:16 am
Why must you insist on turning the tide on a group you clearly don't agree with? ...
Because they brainwashed me and lied to me. They hurt me. They stole my self from me.
Because they teach mothers to despise their lesbian daughter. My niece had to cut off all relations with her family of origin because her homophobia mother had been taught that being gay is a choice, and a choice that makes you a terrible evil person. When her brothers and sisters joined in the shaming and persecution, she had to cut then out to protect herself and her wife and their children from constant nasty comments. The church tries to take away rights from other people. So, yes, I want to change the church to make them leave my daughter and my niece alone. If they left others alone, then I would feel fine about leaving them alone. But their persecution of people I love give me the right to make every effort to make them leave those I love alone.

I know, I am quoting myself. This kind of changes my mind that maybe I should be less neutral toward the church. Maybe following the example of King is a god idea. When do we hold our protest march and what topic will our first one be about?

But then again, the example of MLK was not one of confronting individuals. He fought institutionalized discrimination. He didn’t pick fights with white friends. So, I guess this is why when a friend asks me why I left the church, I try not to insult them about their beliefs. So, I try not to tell them that I think the “church” they belong to is really a money grubbing real estate brokerage masquerading as a church and they are stuck in a 1950s view of the world and they think there is no problem with global warming or destroying the earth God made. So, I tell them that the money grubbing... I mean I tell them that the church doesn’t work for me.

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Linked
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by Linked » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:03 pm

alas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:28 am
I know, I am quoting myself. This kind of changes my mind that maybe I should be less neutral toward the church. Maybe following the example of King is a god idea. When do we hold our protest march and what topic will our first one be about?
Isn't Sam Young holding another rally soon?
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Wonderment
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by Wonderment » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:59 am

The line “the church doesn’t work for me” is diplomatic and non-confrontational. Good idea. I like it because it allows us to speak our truth without having to be hostile or defensive. —Wndr

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MoPag
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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by MoPag » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:17 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:03 pm
alas wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:28 am
I know, I am quoting myself. This kind of changes my mind that maybe I should be less neutral toward the church. Maybe following the example of King is a god idea. When do we hold our protest march and what topic will our first one be about?
Isn't Sam Young holding another rally soon?
October 5th
https://events.r20.constantcontact.com/ ... eq=&c=&ch=
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Re: MLK Jr.

Post by moksha » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:05 am

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Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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