Disgust

[Linked]

Lately my main emotion with regard to church and faith generally is disgust. (I apologize to those who still hold faith as important, I still appreciate you and your perspective)

It used to be fear, and hurt, and anger, but those have been largely pushed aside by a deep feeling of disgust. When I hear the end of times narrative from believers due to the coronavirus impact I blurt out "gross". I am disgusted by the emails I get from my bishop pushing the importance of the priesthood and the Trueness of the church. These things seem totally crazy and hurtful to me now.

It makes it difficult to build or maintain relationships. Has anyone gone thru the disgust and gotten back out to a place where you have a less negative reaction? I worry that the core values that lead me out of the church may make it impossible for me to avoid the feelings of disgust.

[glass shelf]

I mostly border on indifference these days. Like the indifference I feel towards golfers.

But then, the LDS church has to rile people up to reactivate those who've left every 6 months and that brings up bouts of anger/irritation/amusement/annoyance depending on who contacts me about what. It's a cycle for sure.

eta: regarding Golfers Usually I just don't give a crud about golfing. I have no desire to spend my time or all my money that way. Then, the other day, I was driving home from a shift at the hospital on a particularly beautiful day thinking about my kids and all the challenges everyone's facing when I realized the golf course near my house was absolutely packed. Would this usually bother me? Nope. But it sure as heck annoyed me that day beacuse these people clearly have no respect for social distancing and are just upping the likelihood of community transmission. Ugh.

[Hagoth]

I get angry when they do and say really dumbass hurtful things but I also see how much many people need something like the church to makes sense of the universe and give them hope. I think the church could still do that without being abusive and arrogant, and I'm hoping someday they will. In the meantime I try (and often fail) to take a general "eh, what'er you gonna do?" attitude. It could be worse. My loved ones could be JWs, Scientologists, or Alt-Right Evangelicals. I'll take Mormons, thank you.

[Ghost]

I guess I've come to see myself as something of an outside observer, even though I still participate in Mormonism to some degree and have some devout family members. I still find it all interesting from an anthropological perspective (Mormonism and faith in general), but I sometimes think that I might be somehow better off moving on to a greater extent or in a different way than I have. Who knows?

Speaking of end times talk and Jehovah's Witnesses, one of their Governing Body members recently made a statement on this topic and I like his phrasing:

https://youtu.be/2uVE0hWQs_E (This clip is 22 seconds long; the full video from the official source is here.)

I've done quite a bit of reading about the Jehovah's Witness movement over the past few years. I've found it interesting and enlightening to compare the history and practices with Mormonism, seeing the similarities and differences.

[wtfluff]

I'm trying to decide if what I feel is disgust or disappointment, or maybe even anger.

When a bunch of kooks who claim to talk to an all-powerful being in the sky have the opportunity to give ~12 hours worth of speeches in the midst of a 100-year global pandemic, and they offer nothing hopeful whatsoever, it's definitely disgust, but also a lot of disappointment.

Honestly, I feel those same emotions towards myself for buying into the craziness for way too many years.

I doubt I'll ever get to the point of never feeling any of those three emotions related to Elohim-Inc., though I do think I am becoming more indifferent over time.

[Reuben]

Be careful with disgust. It tends to get transferred to everything the original object of disgust is in contact with, such as friends and family. It influences us reason about objects of disgust as if they're diseased.

All the same, it's really, really understandable.

If you want to know where it comes from, there are a few sources I can think of. All of them can be summed up by "your brain trying to protect you."

1. Internal. It tends to arise to maintain emotional distance from things that can harm us, especially if we think of those things as being in some sense infectious.

2. External, learned. We tend to assume the disgust attitudes of people we hang out with, usually without noticing.

3. External, observed. If we frequently observe thing A "in contact" with thing B and thing A already disgusts us, we tend to develop disgust for thing B, too. This one needs examples, so I'll go with 1) how some Democrats develop disgust for Republicans because they're disgusted by Trump, and 2) how some ex-Mormons transfer disgust for homophobia to disgust for the church.

I'm not sure you really wanted psychological analysis, but you can always count on me for it...

[RubinHighlander]

I get it Linked! I'm full on out of it, immediate family as well, just the moms and some in-laws and they don't bother us with any of it. But where I still live behind the zion curtain, it gets to me. I would feel a lot less bad about all the hundreds of thousands I paid the LDS corp IF they would use it to do good in the world. But really, those old bastards in SLC are absolutely disgusting the way they pretend to speak for their god on behalf of millions of TBMs, while they sit on their big pile of money and investments and do little to help the world to do what Jesus would really do. Praying on peoples emotions, using fear and guilt to drive them to obedience, I think it's one of the most disgusting and dishonest ways to take advantage of people.

How in the hell did a religion founded by a pedophile and a charlatan get to be so rich and successful?! Unfortunately a big part of it is what evolution of the big ape brains gave us: tribalism. It's so wired into our DNA it's hard for most of us to escape running with a herd for perceived protection, acceptance and for some, the desire to lead a herd and take advantage of it.

Every time I get riled up about it I just try to remind myself how lucky I was to escape it and how much I used to believe it; then I can find some empathy for those still slogging it. As far as the leaders...I wish so much for some vindication and justice to rain down upon them, but I know that's not likely to happen in my lifetime. I know some of them were caught up in it, some know it's BS and some full on drink their own koolaid. I just hope the world can eventually evolve out of it. In the here and now I try not to let it get to me too much and avoid getting obsessed.

DW and I still have our rants a couple times a month, but they don't last long. For those of you still having to deal directly with it because of believing loved ones, you have my full and sincere empathy! Try to find some relief via empathy and stress relief via nature. Also, use those "herbal" supplements that can help you tap into the zero Fs part of your brain. Live a double life if you have to so your true self has a place to be but you have a level of tolerance and empathy for the church side; that's how I powered through it and thank the gods it wasn't for more than a few years.

[Thoughtful]

I understand this analogy too. As well as disappointment. I don't miss the beliefs, they are toxic. I miss feeling like I had something special to guide me. I miss feeling the immediate understanding and connection with a shared identity. I miss not being completely disregarded for what I think and choose as being under the influence of satan. That adds up to a lot of disappointment and complicated relationships, with a side of disgust about the toxicity of it all.

[alas]

Be careful with disgust. It tends to get transferred to everything the original object of disgust is in contact with, such as friends and family. It influences us reason about objects of disgust as if they're diseased.

All the same, it's really, really understandable.

If you want to know where it comes from, there are a few sources I can think of. All of them can be summed up by "your brain trying to protect you."

1. Internal. It tends to arise to maintain emotional distance from things that can harm us, especially if we think of those things as being in some sense infectious.

2. External, learned. We tend to assume the disgust attitudes of people we hang out with, usually without noticing.

3. External, observed. If we frequently observe thing A "in contact" with thing B and thing A already disgusts us, we tend to develop disgust for thing B, too. This one needs examples, so I'll go with 1) how some Democrats develop disgust for Republicans because they're disgusted by Trump, and 2) how some ex-Mormons transfer disgust for homophobia to disgust for the church.

I'm not sure you really wanted psychological analysis, but you can always count on me for it...

While we are giving the psychological analysis, add that disgust is *the* big predictor of divorce. So, as Reuben said, disgust tends to transfer onto things around whatever you are disgusted with. So, if your spouse is still active and the church disgusts you, this will transfer onto the spouse unless you are very careful. The silent signal of disgust was the biggest predictor of whether a couple ended up divorced or saved their marriage. So, disgust is probably worse for your marriage than the anger is, you want to get through this stage and onto indifference as soon as you can talk yourself into being more casual about.

[Corsair]

It makes it difficult to build or maintain relationships. Has anyone gone thru the disgust and gotten back out to a place where you have a less negative reaction? I worry that the core values that lead me out of the church may make it impossible for me to avoid the feelings of disgust.

I can tell you my perspective for what it's worth. I can't promise that it will help or can be replicated, but it works for me with much, much less negative emotion.

Everyone is on their own spiritual path. Even the orthodox true believers who are condemning your apostate ways. They simply do not see the same perspective you do and are probably incapable of doing so. This leads to the danger of feeling further condescension towards your family and friends who were probably posting all sorts of fasting memes today on Facebook.

Let me note that angrier apostate forums like /r/exmormon are pushing back on the believers in their lives asking if skipping two meals will save anyone's life who has COVID-19. Let me humbly note that the apostates and believers have an obscenely difficult time acknowledging the spiritual path of each other. Each side has internally consistent fears and concerns over how the lifestyle and choices of the other is causing pain and harm. This is magnified by the notable examples of paths that are objectively a bad idea.

Your profound change of belief was filled with emotional pain and existential doubts. It still is. Still, do you see the depth of understanding that you developed through this? Could you possibly go back? We know that it's hard and all of us have held back when the occasional believer asks about what really led to our unbelief. We wanted to spare them that emotional pain. At the same time, progressing in spiritual understand always involves pain. Yet we all know many people who become something new because of they pain they overcame. Your first life is over. Would you like find a better way for this new life?

Forgive them, Linked, for they know not what they do.

[Reuben]

So... you've gotten validation, warnings and advice, but that doesn't really cover the appropriate responses. We've forgotten praise. I mean, check this out, people:

It makes it difficult to build or maintain relationships. Has anyone gone thru the disgust and gotten back out to a place where you have a less negative reaction? I worry that the core values that lead me out of the church may make it impossible for me to avoid the feelings of disgust.

Strong emotions are hard to take a step back from. The FSM knows I struggle with it. But Linked, here you are doing just that, thinking through how they might affect you and your loved ones, and wondering if/how they should change.

You know that most people wouldn't even start doing this?

[Emower]

Yup. All of us here get the disgust emotion strongly every time GC, or RMN comes across your feed, or gets mentioned in passing. It's pretty important to come here and let it out, and not at home. Make sure it doesn't bleed over to disgust for your loved ones. The church is t worth that kind of destruction.

[Mackman]

Hello Nomie family : I feel the need to jump in here as I at times suffer from the disgust of the church !!!! My latest was Oaks talking about the preexistence and lack of faith by members there which led to their earthly situation !!! Often times my disgust turns to anger for a few days or weeks then back to disgust and finally I end up in indifference!!! Since my F.C. in 2014 I have listened and come to know many of you going all the way back to the old board. I appreciate all of you and find this place my safe haven . Today I mostly live a life of total indifference to the church forced by family to remain near it . I appreciate Corsairs example as he puts it being the biggest liar to the church, I do the same faking it because I have too !!! Waiting on God to bring my wife out!!!!!! Thanks.

[2bizE]

I certain am disappointed in the church leadership. They completely blew the opportunity to show how relevant the church can be. Instead of something meaningful, all we got was a new proclamation that is totally irrelevant to the world. Nobody in the world reads that crap. It was all about how Jesus Smith is the greatest thing next to Jesus himself. The Mormon church is the only true church and all other churches are irrelevant. What a crock of bull. That was about the cultiest thing Nelson could do. Especially at Easter time. To have a world parade worshiping Joseph rather than Jesus.
Who is the intended audience for a proclamation? Not the world. It is the members. So a proclamation defining something they already know and teach in the first missionary discussions fell flat. It was deflating. I think some active members have caught onto that as well, which is not good for the church. With this trend in proclamations, the next one will likely be on the importance of essential oils in living the gospel of Joseph Smith.

[Red Ryder]

Be careful with disgust. It tends to get transferred to everything the original object of disgust is in contact with, such as friends and family. It influences us reason about objects of disgust as if they're diseased.

All the same, it's really, really understandable.

If you want to know where it comes from, there are a few sources I can think of. All of them can be summed up by "your brain trying to protect you."

(Snip)

I'm not sure you really wanted psychological analysis, but you can always count on me for it...

While we are giving the psychological analysis, add that disgust is *the* big predictor of divorce. So, as Reuben said, disgust tends to transfer onto things around whatever you are disgusted with. So, if your spouse is still active and the church disgusts you, this will transfer onto the spouse unless you are very careful. The silent signal of disgust was the biggest predictor of whether a couple ended up divorced or saved their marriage. So, disgust is probably worse for your marriage than the anger is, you want to get through this stage and onto indifference as soon as you can talk yourself into being more casual about.

This was helpful in my marriage when we were going through therapy. Our therapist was quick to build a narrative around us focusing on our good feelings toward each other and avoiding the things that focused on disgust.

I’ll note that our therapy was successful from a “we’re still married” standpoint. However, indifference to the church kills a lot of the emotional relationship when you're married to an emotional Mormon. The emotional Mormon doesn't have a doctrinal testimony, could care less about church history, and isn’t bothered by culture wackiness. The emotional Mormon is only bound to the church because they feel good going. The community, music, and good family values keep the emotional Mormon tied to their “testimony”. Becoming indifferent to the church means you’ve become indifferent to them.

That’s how my spouse sees it. So it’s a double edged sword. My disgust of the church interferes in the marriage and my indifference does too!

[Hagoth]

Speaking of end times talk and Jehovah's Witnesses, one of their Governing Body members recently made a statement on this topic and I like his phrasing:

https://youtu.be/2uVE0hWQs_E (This clip is 22 seconds long; the full video from the official source is here.)

Oh man, I love this!

So if you keep predicting you are in the last days of the world, but the end keeps stubbornly refusing to come about you just keep adding additional repetitions of "final" and "last," as in "we're finally in the final days of the last of the last days." I wonder how far you can stretch this?

[Palerider]

Oh man, I love this!

So if you keep predicting you are in the last days of the world, but the end keeps stubbornly refusing to come about you just keep adding additional repetitions of "final" and "last," as in "we're finally in the final days of the last of the last days." I wonder how far you can stretch this?

Well..... eventually you begin to arrive at the winding up times when the concluding period will start closing in on the finalizing of the last days just before the end times.

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[Linked]

Great posts everyone. I read them all.

Many of you shared what disgusts and disappoints you too, solidarity. Uctdorf's "unruly child" comment struck a nerve when I first saw it. It would be interesting to compile attacks on members who leave from GC over the past few years. I think GC weekend can prime me to be disgusted even easier, so when anyone even hints at something church related my disgust pops up. If I could just forget about the church stuff for a month at a time it would probably be easier.

Reuben, part of the reason I even think about this is from the discussion we had with Deacon and DPR at Kneaders. I think you had just read about disgust. So I have been monitoring what I am disgusted by more closely, and have been noticing that the church stuff really triggers it lately.

Fortunately my relationship w/ DW hasn't been infected too much, probably largely due to her giving me a pretty wide berth on church stuff. She is doing her best and is a hardworking, kind, good woman. She seems to be a believer, but I wouldn't say she is TBM; she has too much of a live and let live attitude.

The relationships I worry about most are with my parents and siblings. As adults there just isn't much to build a relationship on. All of them continue to have the church as a common building block, but I don't want to hear about it. I'm on group texts where the share their praises to God that they were able to have a temple wedding ceremony the day before the temples shut down. And their praise to God that the human body heals from road rash. I'm glad things worked out, and the human body is amazing, but I don't agree with the conclusions they draw. And it disgusts me that they ignore the stuff that disagrees with their conclusion. And there is very little else that we talk about. It often feels like the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. And as the disgust increases, the squeeze gets more costly.

[alas]

Great posts everyone. I read them all.

Many of you shared what disgusts and disappoints you too, solidarity. Uctdorf's "unruly child" comment struck a nerve when I first saw it. It would be interesting to compile attacks on members who leave from GC over the past few years. I think GC weekend can prime me to be disgusted even easier, so when anyone even hints at something church related my disgust pops up. If I could just forget about the church stuff for a month at a time it would probably be easier.

Reuben, part of the reason I even think about this is from the discussion we had with Deacon and DPR at Kneaders. I think you had just read about disgust. So I have been monitoring what I am disgusted by more closely, and have been noticing that the church stuff really triggers it lately.

Fortunately my relationship w/ DW hasn't been infected too much, probably largely due to her giving me a pretty wide berth on church stuff. She is doing her best and is a hardworking, kind, good woman. She seems to be a believer, but I wouldn't say she is TBM; she has too much of a live and let live attitude.

The relationships I worry about most are with my parents and siblings. As adults there just isn't much to build a relationship on. All of them continue to have the church as a common building block, but I don't want to hear about it. I'm on group texts where the share their praises to God that they were able to have a temple wedding ceremony the day before the temples shut down. And their praise to God that the human body heals from road rash. I'm glad things worked out, and the human body is amazing, but I don't agree with the conclusions they draw. And it disgusts me that they ignore the stuff that disagrees with their conclusion. And there is very little else that we talk about. It often feels like the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. And as the disgust increases, the squeeze gets more costly.

One thing that really helped me with some relatives insufferable TBMness is to consider it as a hobby. I will get fed up to disgust level with Bob and his constant religious talk, or Jan & John with their *4th* trek mission, then I compare them to Ron, the tennis playing nutcase (champ of the over 70 age group) or George who has to play golf on every course in the state, or Karen with her $ thousands cosplay costumes, or Rich with his dressing up in medieval armor and bashing his buddies, or Kathy and scuba diving trips, or dear brother trying to kill himself biking down cliffs, or nephew who ran a 100 mile in 24 hour race over the mountain, in the rain/hail, or us and our ATVs. Is one hobby obsession that they spend thousands on really worse than another. I mean, I really don’t get golf, whack this ball into this little hole? Dumb. But needing to travel to every golf course in the state? Or spend 3k on medieval armor, then do pretend fighting winner gets to be king...pretend to be king, spending a few more thousands on royal robes. Is it any harder to pretend enthusiasm for that 4th trek mission than it is to pretend enthusiasm for the cosplay outfits, or to pretend enthusiasm for what the pagan kindred is doing this week? Seeing it as a hobby that my relative choose helps me not to take it any more seriously than Ron and his spending 4-8 hours a day on his tennis, or any other hobby gone slightly crazy. It helps me see it as “whatever makes them happy” rather than “how can they take this seriously”? Because if it is just their hobby, I don’t have to take it seriously, just be happy that they have found something that makes them happy.

[Hagoth]

Well..... eventually you begin to arrive at the winding up times when the concluding period will start closing in on the finalizing of the last days just before the end times.

Now are you talking about the last days of the end times or the last part of the last day of the final days? Gotta be more specific!