Two kinds of minds?

[Hagoth]

Could it possibly be this simple?

If we set aside all of the testifying, apologetics, debate, and polemics could it be that there are just two general categories cognitive propensities of Mormons/postmormons?

1) Those who CAN choose to believe
2) Those who CANNOT choose to believe

Of course, there's a messy category in between, which would include those who spend their entire life trying to remain in the first category despite tendencies toward the second category, those who are in the second category but in a situation where they must behave like they're in the first, and those who could be in the second but are either lacking in curiosity or so culturally insulated that they never encounter disruptive information that isn't easily dismissed without serious consideration.

All lifelong members are believers up to the point that they begin encountering bumps in the road. Beyond that point some seem to actually support the idea that you can choose to believe, and they not only do so but expect others to follow suit. Others (y'all) can't comprehend how it could even be possible to honestly make such a choice, even if you desperately wish you could.

[Angel]

There have been studies, from religious people claiming atheists are missing their frontal cortex, to atheists claiming religious people have reduced logical capabilities. Not really anything that was robustly reproduced, but most experimental practices in the medical field are not what you call robust...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_religion

Brains are not set in stone...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity

I was a true believer, and have experienced my brain playing tricks on me. When the call about the kids first came through, they had to repeat themselves over and over again because my brain refused to process the information. This happened several times, seeing things with my eyes that my brain literally refused to process. I felt the programming in my head, and had to re-program.

I am an engineering professor. My brain is important to me, it is my livelihood. Feeling it click and dissociate and black out was extremely disturbing. At one point I was so empty and shaken inside I pushed and pushed on my arms because my brain told me I was hollow - I had to push on myself and feel the resistance and see I did not crumble to convince my brain I still had internal organs. Some mental trauma actually shuts down pain receptors, you are literally numb without feeling. The brain definitely plays tricks on us.

[2bizE]

I’ve lived in both of these dimensions…

[nibbler]

What does it mean to choose to believe?

May be cliché but what about Santa? What does it mean to choose to believe in Santa as an adult? Does believing mean you think there's a literal magic man that lives close to the north pole that distributes presents to people on the night of Christmas Eve and that he's busy managing his elves that craft all the toys during the rest of the year? Or does believing take the shape of knowing it's a myth but it's a fun tradition, so you propagate that tradition down to your children?

So what does it mean to believe in the Mormon church? That you literally believe all the stories, or that you find value in the stories, knowing they're mythical?

[Journey]

What does it mean to choose to believe?

May be cliché but what about Santa? What does it mean to choose to believe in Santa as an adult? Does believing mean you think there's a literal magic man that lives close to the north pole that distributes presents to people on the night of Christmas Eve and that he's busy managing his elves that craft all the toys during the rest of the year? Or does believing take the shape of knowing it's a myth but it's a fun tradition, so you propagate that tradition down to your children?

So what does it mean to believe in the Mormon church? That you literally believe all the stories, or that you find value in the stories, knowing they're mythical?

This!
I think that once you are aware of the truth, all of the choosing to believe goes out the window and a person is left with choosing to ignore the facts or not.

[Palerider]

I can see a TBM who when they encounter uncomfortable facts, they get a little shakey.

They might ask a Bishop/Stake President for some answers or guidance. The response in the past was to pat the member on the head, tell them the new information is of no consequence, testify of Joseph and warn them not to read anymore anti-mormon literature.

The member then goes away "hoping" that there's nothing to worry about and hoping that the church is true.

As long as they stay away from honest and factual information and stick with "faith promoting" propaganda they can retain and live in the hope that the church is true.

If they return to the "anti-mormon", devil inspired, information they will eventually have to "choose to believe".

They have to reach the conclusion that Joseph was an imperfect, fallible, human whose actions cannot be fully accounted for nor explained but they are going to "choose to believe". Mostly they will make that choice because the alternative is just too big and scary, too mind bending, to contemplate. They haven't got the intestinal fortitude to go there. It's more than just a faith crisis, it's a "personal identity crisis".

It means pain, anger, sadness, shame, loss of face, loss of community, loss of family possibly. Maybe even loss of employment. There appears to be no upside to reaching the inevitable conclusion that the church is phony from the beginning and continues misrepresenting the truth.

[Angel]

What does it mean to choose to believe?

May be cliché but what about Santa? What does it mean to choose to believe in Santa as an adult? Does believing mean you think there's a literal magic man that lives close to the north pole that distributes presents to people on the night of Christmas Eve and that he's busy managing his elves that craft all the toys during the rest of the year? Or does believing take the shape of knowing it's a myth but it's a fun tradition, so you propagate that tradition down to your children?

So what does it mean to believe in the Mormon church? That you literally believe all the stories, or that you find value in the stories, knowing they're mythical?

As an adult, your understanding of Santa deepens to understand it is through Santa's Spirit that good children are born into the right families who are led by Santa's Spirit, acting under the direction of Santa, to bring presents. The presents are in fact made by the spirits of elves who descend upon toymakers and inspire their creativity, and the spirit of reindeer are the true power behind forces in the transportation industry. As a child you will not understand the spiritual powers as clearly. It is only through repetition of the sacred poems and songs that your heart will burn, and you will know the real power behind all that is Christmas.

[Angel]

It's more than just a faith crisis, it's a "personal identity crisis".

It means pain, anger, sadness, shame, loss of face, loss of community, loss of family possibly. Maybe even loss of employment. ...

Once there lived a village of creatures along the bottom of a great crystal river. The current of the river swept silently over them all -- young and old, rich and poor, good and evil -- the current going its own way, knowing only its own crystal self.
Each creature in its own manner clung tightly to the twigs and rocks of the river bottom, for clinging was their way of life, and resisting the current was what each had learned from birth.

But one creature said at last, "I am tired of clinging. Though I cannot see it with my eyes, I trust that the current knows where it is going. I shall let go, and let it take me where it will. Clinging, I shall die of boredom."

The other creatures laughed and said, "Fool! Let go, and that current you worship will throw you tumbled and smashed against the rocks, and you will die quicker than boredom!"

But the one heeded them not, and taking a breath did let go, and at once was tumbled and smashed by the current across the rocks.

Yet in time, as the creature refused to cling again, the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.

And the creatures downstream, to whom he was a stranger, cried, "See a miracle! A creature like ourselves, yet he flies! See the messiah, come to save us all!"

And the one carried in the current said, "I am no more messiah than you. The river delights to lift us free, if only we dare let go. Our true work is this voyage, this adventure."

But they cried the more, "Savior!" all the while clinging to the rocks, and when they looked again he was gone, and they were left alone making legends of a savior.

-- from Illusions by Richard Bach

[Palerider]

But the one heeded them not, and taking a breath did let go, and at once was tumbled and smashed by the current across the rocks.

Yet in time, as the creature refused to cling again, the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.

Interesting on a number of levels.

And without going into extended details, I had an incident take place in highschool where I was ostracized by a large clique of Mormon friends for (of all things), doing the right thing. It was excruciatingly painful for me as a teenager.

But what it taught me was that when necessary, I could stand alone. An invaluable lesson.

And eventually I found other friends as well.

Painful? Yes. But well worth the price paid. A great blessing in disguise.

[Angel]

But the one heeded them not, and taking a breath did let go, and at once was tumbled and smashed by the current across the rocks.

Yet in time, as the creature refused to cling again, the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.

Interesting on a number of levels.

And without going into extended details, I had an incident take place in highschool where I was ostracized by a large clique of Mormon friends for (of all things), doing the right thing. It was excruciatingly painful for me as a teenager.

But what it taught me was that when necessary, I could stand alone. An invaluable lesson.

And eventually I found other friends as well.

Painful? Yes. But well worth the price paid. A great blessing in disguise.

I am an only child, I grew up alone. I'm still happy to be alone, enjoy solo biking and hiking. I teach students they must get through exams alone, they must be independent - have to be more than independent, take care of yourself with enough left over to contribute to a group.

Johnathan Living Seagull - that Richard Bach, not a person to get married to, but he wrote some deep things, he was independent too.

Two kinds of minds, those who are independent and those who rely on group think.

[Hagoth]

Johnathan Living Seagull

A life-changing book for teenage me.

[Hagoth]

In light of all that was said here, I agree that choosing to believe is something like clinging to the rocks, even when you see evidence that it might be better for you to let go. OUT THERE might be scary. It's safe and warm in here where so many other people are telling me what to believe and praising me for believing it.

The Mormon way of saying it is "stay in the boat." If you think things are rough in here, just imagine how bad the storm must be OUT THERE!

"Choose to believe" means sacrifice yourself for the comfort of those around you. When someone like Dieter Uchtdorf tells you to choose to believe I think he's telling you to accept defeat and settle for what you've got. You know there's more truth out there but if you can stop yourself from thinking about it and be happy with what you always believed, you won't have to deal with all of those scary, difficult decisions. You won't have to disappoint your spouse, parents, children, siblings, friends, ward members, local leaders, people who look up to you and to whom you look up.

And that brings me back to the two-minds proposition. It's a much easier choice to make for some folks than for others. Some people make good inventory clerks. Some make good detectives. You can't expect them to easily change places and find fulfillment in it.

I have a little clipping on my wall about The Loop and The Spiral. You can stay in the loop and be comfortable and not upset others who don't want to see you grow beyond their level, or you can be in The Spiral and allow your intuition to expand your orbit so that you experience new realms beyond the mundane, repetitive orbit of The Loop.

[Angel]

I have a little clipping on my wall about The Loop and The Spiral. You can stay in the loop and be comfortable and not upset others who don't want to see you grow beyond their level, or you can be in The Spiral and allow your intuition to expand your orbit so that you experience new realms beyond the mundane, repetitive orbit of The Loop.

Love it! Coincidence, I was pushed into another "spiral" at work today.... one of those situations where everyone pats you on the back and congratulates you with big smiles that they don't have to deal with what I am now going to trudge through for everyone... upward spiral or downward spiral? My conscious mind chooses repetitive circles, but karma and unconscious forces keep kicking me into new adventures. Pros and cons to both kinds of life, damned if you do, damned if you don't haha

[Linked]

I couldn't even comprehend the option of choose to believe. I was 1000% convinced that mormon god was real and in charge and that the prophets were his people. Everything had to fit into that worldview. As I learned more and more my beliefs grew more nuanced and complicated to make everything fit, and there were some things that were in the "find out in the afterlife" category, but the core worldview stayed the same. Until it suddenly didn't.

Once I realized it didn't make sense and therefore probably wasn't reality there was no option to choose to believe. I think that the choose to believe people are still just grappling with the nuance and non-core items that don't make sense and not with their core beliefs. My thoughtful but believing brother told me he had struggled with his testimony when I came out as non-believing to him, but he quickly conceded that he had never come out the other side. I think this fits.

There are plenty of effective strategies to stay away from questioning the core beliefs. The usual goal-post moving, shot-gun possibility answers to non-core but troubling questions (tapirs raise your hooves), and encouraging lively discussion of non-core beliefs are examples.

[Hagoth]

Choose to procrastinate thinking about it.

[alas]

Choose to procrastinate thinking about it.

I know this was meant to be funny, but there is more truth to it than is comfortable, which is what makes it funny, is that we recognize it as something we do, and that causes, or rather reawakens the cognitive dissonance that we haven’t resolved yet, so we have just decided not to think too much.

See, often we find two things that we really can’t believe both, but we think about it and don’t like, or don’t feel safe giving up one or the other, so we decide to keep both beliefs and just live with the contradiction. For example, my experience in life is that there is nobody you can really trust. Everyone will screw you given half a chance. But I don’t WANT to live that way. I want to live by the other thing that I want to believe in spite of evidence to the contrary, and that is that *most* people are basically, kind, honest, decent folk. Now, a person can’t both believe that 99.9% of people will screw you given half a chance, AND believe that most people are basically good, honest, trustworthy, kind, like I try to be. But I want to live by the second belief, because living by the first, while safer, is lonely. So, I throw caution to the wind and trust people until given the first hint other wise, then I am outta there. So, to my family and friends, I seem kind of unforgiving. They make one mistake and I dump them, permanently. But they don’t understand the effort I put in to give them *one* chance when they go around expecting a second and third chance with me.

So, living with the cognitive dissonance of holding two opposite beliefs has consequences, and it is a compromise, and it takes either not thinking about it, or it takes deep deep analysis and then a choice to live that way. I have chosen to live with my two opposite beliefs, by a compromise. I give them that first chance, but by damn they have to walk on water to get a second chance.

I am sure there are people who both refuse to think about the cognitive dissonance, and those who have done the deep dive into their conflicting beliefs and feelings and come up with a compromise that works for them to stay in the church. It takes weighing the costs of living according to one belief, as compared to the costs of living the other. This is what they are calling choosing to believe.

There are multiple factors that weigh into this balance. First of all the benefits to believing (a) have to outweigh the benefits of believing (b). If the cost of either belief is so high that you just don’t want to live that way, they a person will pick the belief they can life with. For example, I did not want to go through life trusting nobody, but my experience was that even your father and mother will put their wants or convince ahead of your needs, even your survival. But that is so lonely I might just as well not be alive. Better to get hurt over and over than to just roll over and die.
Second the evidence has to be close. If the evidence is overwhelming, often no matter how badly we may want to believe, we just can’t.

But there is a cost to your internal integrity if you don’t think deeply and KNOW why you are choosing (a) over (b). For a person to say, “I see all this evidence, but I am going to ignore it because I want to keep believing (a).” The cost is that you know you can’t be trusted, so it ends up with people like BKP, and Holland, who will fly off the handle because of their internal conflict they are trying to smash down. See, Holland really wants to be a nice guy. We wants to love everyone. But his church says that he isn’t supposed to tolerate gays who want to be gays. Fine to love gays who hate themselves. But it is not OK if they have accepted that they are gay and want to stay that way. So, he has a conflict, because he knows people need to love themselves, but gays are not supposed to love themselves as is, but they are born that way and can’t change. So, he both believes they need to love themselves, and that they should not love themselves until they change, and that they can’t change. So it yells at the teachers at BYU and takes unfair digs at valedictorians. Because he knows he can’t be trusted. Which makes him angry. Because if gays didn’t exist he wouldn’t have this conflict, so it is all their fault for existing and they should stop, so he doesn’t have to lie to himself that he is really the good guy he wants to be, while still hating gays. So, yeah, I feel sorry for his poor worthless behind.

[Hagoth]

I hear what you're saying, Alas, and I agree with you.

But I think there is more room in my mind for to choose between two sides of a coin that deals with large, generalities of truthiness. Or like my gay friend's bishop father who insisted that his son was "just going through a phase" for about four decades until he died still believing that.

Not so much for specific, concrete facts like what is actually written on the JS papyri or the non-presence of Israelite DNA in the Americas. I can't simply decide to believe that the Hor Breathing Permit was really written by Abraham 2000 years before it's actual physical date. I can't simply decide to believe the Lehite DNA just disappeared (but somehow the Neanderthal DNA persisted!). The apologists only muddy the water with ugly bandaids.