Fight The New Drug

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
dogbite
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by dogbite » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:12 am

If a medicine exists that placates bad behavior by substitute without expiration then there is no healing, only supression.
Perhaps, but this is often the case. A wheelchair for an impaired person, thyroxin when the thyroid goes bad. You're assuming we have ability and purposes we do not or may not possess.
The suggestion that pornography keeps child molestors from abuse and rapists from assault would require that at some point these would cease their need for such a prescription, yet that is not the case.
See above, no-one claimed curative powers. You've moved into strawman territory here refuting things we didn't claim.
Furthermore supporting men and women and children who participate in producing pornography creates an industry that encourages human trafficking, disintegrates sexual intimacy, and inspires others to cease productivity for a chance to profit from the gratification of their bodies.
It can, but this is too general of a statement. The details tend to support legalisation, regulation and that sort of thing rather than banning in total. So most porn in production in the western world is legal. It's managed under consent, contracts, health standards and so on. Where the trafficking tends to occur is in those areas that are illegal. Underage content, co-erced content and so on. This is illegal and rightly so, to produce, consume and so on. Banning doesn't eliminate this, but with access to legal distribution and production, you can more easily police and control. This is because you've already undercut the primary financial basis of the illegal system with the more popular mainstream content and its legal access Similar to how legalizing marijuana can and does undercut aspects of illegal production and distribution. It doesn't eliminate, but it cuts criminal income and production streams and increases jobs, and taxes for society.
For the reason of repeated consumption and withdrawal that contributes to crime and sexual distortion and sloth, pornography does not heal, is not medicine, and cannot be considered therapeutic.
Back to the strawman. The addiction claim is not inevidence. The crime claim is overstated and largely does not apply as the crimes you assert do not happen generally. Technically porn is illegal, erotica is not. What is commonly called porn is really erotica in the legal sense and this is why its production and consumption are legal.

Sexual distortion can happen, but its for personal history and predisposition issues rather than consumption. This is fairly well established.

Sloth--this is just silly. You don't dictate what someone else does with their time and finds value in. You can judge it but that's just personal opinion. The arrogant judgement here is unwarranted. Your standards aren't absolute and have no weight in what we think of your argument. Indeed it's a weakness in the argument because you're applying standards that aren't agreed upon as valuable.

Healing isn't the claim, that's a strawman.

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Hagoth
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:34 pm

Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that porn is bad and can mess up your life. The problem I see is that porn recovery programs seem to have the power to screw up peoples' lives too. I have seen it happen to young men who would have been much better off if they had not been put in that situation. But I'm not sure these programs actually provide a long-term solution, they just embed an obsession deeper. (confession: I haven't actually read the FTND website).

The problem is that shaming a small percentage individual users of porn does NOT stop the porn industry from making their product. From everything I understand shame actually locks people more deeply into their unwanted behavior and probably benefits the porn industry more in the long run.

The scene that always comes to my mind was a time when I was in a room full of men who were tossing around random banter when, for whatever reason, someone started talking about porn as if everyone was familiar with it. I noticed that the LDS men in the room got extremely tense and started blushing and and staring at the floor. The non-LDS men just laughed and the conversation moved on.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:55 pm

Bonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:27 am
If a medicine exists that placates bad behavior by substitute without expiration then there is no healing, only supression.
Hey Bonfire: My doctor says I have high cholesterol, and that I should take medicine, or I might die. He says I'm going to have to take it for the rest of my life. Since my medicine isn't going to provide "healing" should I stop taking it? Maybe find a different doctor?

I mean, medicine that doesn't supply healing and only suppression is completely useless, right?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Bonfire
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Bonfire » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:06 pm

This thread ruined my hope for humanity.
Enjoy your porn you sick animals.
Goodbye.

hmb
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by hmb » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:53 am

Bonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:06 pm
This thread ruined my hope for humanity.
Enjoy your porn you sick animals.
Goodbye.
Wow? I don't think anyone here has really said they "enjoy" porn. They just disagree that it is a drug that will lead to abuse, obsession, and ruin. Your statement implies that anyone who disagrees is thick into obsession, like a meth addict whose sole purpose is the next fix. The fact that you attach "sick animals" to your farewell statement leads me to wonder if porn is a personal problem for you, Bonfire? I'm not saying it is, because I don't know you, but it does make me wonder.

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stealthbishop
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:49 am

Bonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:06 pm
This thread ruined my hope for humanity.
Enjoy your porn you sick animals.
Goodbye.
Are you serious? This feels like a troll.

If this one thread actually "ruined your hope for humanity" you need something far more than FTND. Get some actual help for yourself. You seem to be obsessed with this issue. I hope you can get some perspective and some actual healing.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Red Ryder
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:08 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:49 am
Are you serious? This feels like a troll.

If this one thread actually "ruined your hope for humanity" you need something far more than FTND. Get some actual help for yourself. You seem to be obsessed with this issue. I hope you can get some perspective and some actual healing.
Or at a minimum… suppression!

For the record, I lost all hope for humanity the last time I walked into Wal-Mart.
“I switched baristas” —Lady Gaga

Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Hagoth
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:57 am

Bonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:06 pm
This thread ruined my hope for humanity.
Enjoy your porn you sick animals.
Goodbye.
Maybe you should consider your own actions here, Bonfire. I don't think you realize how condescending your attitude comes across.

You showed up in a support forum, not a preaching forum, and threw down a gauntlet as if you were asking to be challenged. The people on this forum are natural debaters, so you have to expect that when you dump a black-and-white authoritative challenge ("Pornography is a drug that destroys love") on such a group they will discuss, and they are going to say things to try challenge YOU and make YOU open up and talk about your motivations. From all appearances, they did exactly what you challenged them to do, but your response was to call them 'sick animals' for rising to your challenge? It looks like you came here with the goal to further ruin your hope for humanity, and you constructed the argument that would help you do that.

Don't forget that you are talking to post-Mormons who are going to lash out at the church's mistakes. Actual porn addiction is real but rare, and it does ruin marriages. People in that situation really do need professional help. But you know what ruins far more marriages? The false notion that having even looked at porn has turned you into a 'sick animal' who is unworthy of love, and unfit to be in a marriage. This is something that has been actively taught to the young women of the church, with unnecessarily horrible consequences, including suicide. The LDS church has ruined far more marriages over porn than have been ruined by actual porn. Do normal, healthy LDS men look at porn occasionally? Sure. Can they be honest about it? No, they are taught that they must bury themselves in shame or be punished. People I knew who had admitted OCCASIONAL porn use ended up losing their family or getting thrown into a 12-step program alongside heroine addicts and child molesters. What a horrible position to be in; letting someone else make your life miserable for an addiction that isn't even an addiction. That's the drug I choose to fight.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:28 am

Bonfire, to expand on my previous post:

I should point out that you presented a logical argument and deposited it here, I'm assuming to get a response. I'm also assuming you're not a troll.

Let's analyze your argument. Please understand, this is not an analysis of whether or not pornography is bad, neither is it a response to the FTND website (which I haven't read). It is merely an analysis of your specific argument, to help you understand the response you received from this forum.

Premises:
1- Pornography is a drug
2- Pornography destroys love
3- Nobody with lust or an adulterous heart can witness pornography without falling prey to this most pernicious sin
4- A statue or a painting can also be pornographic if one's intent is sexual.
5-Both creating and consuming pornographic content (eg. photos, videos, stories) is the new drug.
6- (implied by several comments) The above premises are the mandate of God and must be respected and obeyed.

Conclusion: People who don't agree that pornography is a drug that destroys love are sick animals who enjoy porn.

My response:
1- Very weak. it is not a drug by any definition of the word

2- Weak. Some couples watch pornography together. It is a matter of personal opinion and indoctrination.

3- This assumes many unstated premises that cannot be demonstrated. My argument: I believe that porn is vastly more harmful to children, who do not approach it with an adulterous heart, while your argument is that an adulterous heart is required. It would make more sense if you said, "I have an adulterous heart, therefore I feel that I fall prey to a pernicious sin." Also, you make unverifiable assumptions about the definition of addiction.

4- Weak. An artist cannot control what someone else will think. The problem is not with the statue or painting. I heard someone say he was fighting "pernicious" thoughts from looking at a flower. I did not blame the flower.

4- Very weak and nonsensical. Refer to response 1

6- Very weak. It depends on your concept of God. If Bonfire's God has mandated it, Bonfire must demonstrate where God has done so in a way that is convincing enough to conclude that this is God's opinion, not Bonfire's.

Conclusion: The argument, from a logical perspective, is either strong nor cogent.

That said, I wish you well, Bonfire, and I hope you won't be too judgmental of yourself or others.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:49 pm

Bonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:06 pm
This thread ruined my hope for humanity.
Enjoy your porn you sick animals.
Goodbye.
Wow. That escalated quickly.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

Zeezrom
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Zeezrom » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:52 pm

Bonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:06 pm
This thread ruined my hope for humanity.
Enjoy your porn you sick animals.
Goodbye.
This takes me back about 9 years to when I was a TBM. It was a miserable life being so sure of my rightness and demonizing everyone else who disagreed with my worldview. I almost have sympathy for Bonfire…it is very exhausting being a TBM in a “lone and dreary world” full of evil, disobedient people who refuse to follow the prophet.

When you’re full of self-righteousness there’s literally no escape from the evil around you. You can even find it every week at church with the “Jack Mormons” and “Slackers who shirk their duties”.

So sad a life being angry all the time….I’m sure there’s an Ezra Taft Benson admiration society that will validate Bonfire’s worldview that society has gone to Hell.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:55 pm

Now I'm kind of worried. Is Captain Salty going to turn this site into Nude Order Mormon? No offense, but I'm not sure that's what I signed up for.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:19 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:55 pm
Now I'm kind of worried. Is Captain Salty going to turn this site into Nude Order Mormon? No offense, but I'm not sure that's what I signed up for.
I just googled “Nude Order Mormon” (for research purposes, Bonfire…) and just came across a great article.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44368772

CONCEALING THE BODY, CONCEALING THE SACRED: THE DECLINE OF RITUAL NUDITY IN MORMON TEMPLES
John-Charles Duffy
Journal of Ritual

I’ll have to sign up for an account to read it. Looks fascinating.
“I switched baristas” —Lady Gaga

Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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stealthbishop
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:18 pm

Zeezrom wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:52 pm
Bonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:06 pm
This thread ruined my hope for humanity.
Enjoy your porn you sick animals.
Goodbye.
This takes me back about 9 years to when I was a TBM. It was a miserable life being so sure of my rightness and demonizing everyone else who disagreed with my worldview. I almost have sympathy for Bonfire…it is very exhausting being a TBM in a “lone and dreary world” full of evil, disobedient people who refuse to follow the prophet.

When you’re full of self-righteousness there’s literally no escape from the evil around you. You can even find it every week at church with the “Jack Mormons” and “Slackers who shirk their duties”.

So sad a life being angry all the time….I’m sure there’s an Ezra Taft Benson admiration society that will validate Bonfire’s worldview that society has gone to Hell.
I can relate to this on some level. Really good point.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Angel
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Angel » Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:34 pm
I noticed that the LDS men in the room got extremely tense and started blushing and and staring at the floor. The non-LDS men just laughed and the conversation moved on.
For my kids - I took them out of the purity culture as I want them to "just move on", to see it as no big deal, their lives are not over because they were abused, they are not "ruined" - it is no big deal.

If you go to Europe, or Japan - Nudity is no big deal. People go to nude beaches, nude saunas, nude baths together. Violence is really frowned upon, but nudity is natural healthy part of yourself, not to be ashamed of.

At work we go through "safe colleges" training, with stats on our students - almost 25% of female students have been assaulted at some point. For most of them, it is "no big deal", they have moved on, do not obsess over it, it is something equivalent to having been in a car accident, or someone stealing your bike - a common occurrence, but you do not obsess over it or consider yourself ruined for it - just part of life, treated like no big deal. That is the healthy way to treat it - no big deal.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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wtfluff
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by wtfluff » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:23 am

I've been waiting since this thread began for someone to post this BYU study: (I found the link in a thread on "another" message board as I was too lazy/scare to go searching for it...)

Religious Conflict Makes Porn Bad for Relationships

Directly from the article:
BYU wrote: seeing oneself as addicted to porn is far more damaging than actually using pornography.
I wonder why LD$-Inc. never refers to this BYU study in General Conference or any of their "approved" published material???




Yay Science!
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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Hagoth
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:38 pm

BYU wrote: seeing oneself as addicted to porn is far more damaging than actually using pornography.
Wow. Somehow that never came up in those 5th Sunday combined lessons.

"Damaged Goods Hypothesis." What a perfect name for it. At one point when I was an overly-scrupulous TBM I became convinced, based on church talks and lessons, that I was a porn addict because sometimes I was tempted to take a peek, even though I didn't and had not for at least a YEAR! Try to imagine a heroine "addict" who only uses once every year or two. Worse, I blamed my unworthiness as the reason Moroni's challenge didn't work for me. (faceplant gif goes here). Man, I wish I could go back and unwind all of that stupid emotional damage. Possibly the worst nugget of Mormon doctrine is the idea that the slightest slip-up brings all of your old sins tumbling back down on your head.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Wonderment
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Wonderment » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:53 pm

Angel wrote:
At work we go through "safe colleges" training, with stats on our students - almost 25% of female students have been assaulted at some point. For most of them, it is "no big deal", they have moved on, do not obsess over it, it is something equivalent to having been in a car accident, or someone stealing your bike - a common occurrence, but you do not obsess over it or consider yourself ruined for it - just part of life, treated like no big deal. That is the healthy way to treat it - no big deal.
You are saying that sexual assault of women is "no big deal" ? It's no big deal if women get sexually assaulted? It's just the same as a traffic accident or a bike theft?
I don't think that's what you mean to say. A sexual assault is intentional, directed by the perpetrator directly onto that woman's body. It's not like a traffic accident, which is happenstance. Traffic accidents are not purposeful, but sexual assaults are indeed purposeful.
Bike thefts are a violation of personal property, yes. But sexual assault, where the perpetrator directly puts their hands on another body and violates someone's personal space and private body parts is much more serious an offense.

I think you might mean to say that sexual assault should not be viewed by the church as the reason why a woman should be ruined for life and considered a licked cupcake or a chewed piece of gum. I think you meant to comment on the church's belief that a woman is ruined in the eyes of the church, or the eyes of God.
I certainly don't think that being the victim of a sexual assault means that a victim should be considered ruined by the church.

But sexual assault can cause a serious emotional or psychological scar, regardless of whether or one is a member of the church. - Wndr.
Last edited by Wonderment on Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wonderment
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Wonderment » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:05 am

Because if sexual abuse were "no big deal", then it follows logically that producer Harvey Weinstein would not be serving 17 years in prison. If it were not a big deal, then the criminal courts and the District Attorneys would not be charging it as a serious felony.

But he IS in prison, because sexual assaults and rape are considered to be a grievous violation of personhood and personal space. - Wndr.

Wonderment
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Wonderment » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:34 am

Bonfire stated:
The suggestion that pornography keeps child molestors from abuse and rapists from assault would require that at some point these would cease their need for such a prescription, yet that is not the case.
This statement was actually made. It's not a straw man.
I disagree with Bonfire. But on this one point, he (or she) is correct in that this statement was made here.
And there are some guys who love the kiddy porn that say it keeps them away from live kids. Let me repeat that for slow people, kiddy porn keeps some guys away from real children.
If viewing child pornography is allegedly helpful in preventing child predators from assaulting actual children..........then where do we find children available to make the child porno films which are allegedly beneficial to the predators? The children have to be trafficked, don't they? And that brings in the situation of human trafficking across state and national lines for the purpose of commercial pornography production, by huge multinational conglomerates like PornHub or XVideo, does it not?

Where do we find the girls and boys available for the production of child rape scenes in order to pacify the predators?
Human trafficking of girls especially ( and some young boys) is prevalent.

If you go to a big multi-national website like Porn Hub ( owned by Mind Geek, a company out of Montreal), and type in the search bar "teenager" or
"young girls" or "unconscious teen rape" or any combination like that, hundreds of those videos exist.

I'm not sure that human trafficking of children, especially young girls sold to traffickers by impoverished parents or people desperate for money, should be seen as "no big deal."

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