Why Strict Religions Succeed

[stealthbishop]

DW and I watched this yesterday and it really helped us to understand our religion better and that the LDS Church is not unique in this way and why a middle way is so difficult to sustain. (There may be a number of videos on this channel that would be of interest to some NOMites I believe).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OwlLwBGW4c

[Tangent]

Fascinating and well done video. I appreciate that he's making his observations from an objective view and he's not passing judgement one way or the other.

I have been noticing lately how Mormonism creates the in-group out-group by creating an alternative and exclusive 'normal'. By that I mean adding new/unusual elements of worship (eg. temple), and also by forbidding certain behaviors that are commonplace and normalized in the wider society (word of wisdom, sexual activity, etc). It's brilliant because not only does it create distinct in-group identity, it makes it harder for those who leave to connect with mainstream society. Even 10 years since my disaffection I still have a hard time knowing how to act 'normal' in social situations with non mormons. There's often a vague sensation that they are somehow foreign.

I find this sort of generalized discussion presented in the video strangely comforting, realizing that Mormonism is not unique and that high demand religions are part of a wider human experience -- that while they may differ in specifics, the trends and methods of these groups is explainable sociologically. To me, deconstructing the 'uniqueness' of the mormon experience helps to reduce it's power.

thanks for sharing!

[Tangent]

This video is also making me think of how the church manages its self image. One one hand, over the past few decades it has really waned to be accepted by the wider christian world. But at the same time it really doesn't want to give up what makes it unique -- the things that serve as its in-group markers-- which the rest of the world think are weird. Of course, ideally the church wants both, total love and acceptance from the world without needing to change anything.

Many of us pontificate about how the church will change in the future. I personally don't think it will liberalize much because, as this video points out, it's not really in their self interest to do so. There is some ebb and flow but in the long term i think that high demand religions will be more successful than liberal ones, because it appeals to our tribal DNA. I think there will continue to be small changes, like 3 hour church to 2 hour. but those aren't really very fundamental. I'm pretty confident that things like word of wisdom, tithing, temple, garments -- if they change it will be glacially slow.

[moksha]

The use of pain sticks in Klingon ceremonies of discommendation probably strengthens the Klingon identity and keeps Klingon's free thought to a minimum. If this harshness ended, who knows how many Klingons would drift to something else such as becoming Cardassian or Latter-day Saints.

[Hagoth]

The church is stuck in a precarious position between wanting to be loved and accepted by everyone and honoring its fundamental roots and fundamentalist members. As much as many of us want to see a kinder, more liberal church, I think the best thing for the strength of the institution would be to go the opposite way. Stop being embarrassed by its doctrines, fire the apologists, excommunicate the big-tenters, teach and emphasize the God-is-an-exalted-man doctrine, and decide once and for all whether they believe in science or biblical literalism. Go for it. If it's true that conservative members are leaving in similar rates as liberal members, they will have a stronger organization if they plug that hole.

Personally, I would hate to see that. It would be an uglier, crueler church and the world would probably be better off without it. It seems like the leadership is mostly cowering from both liberal and conservative Mormons with no sense of prophesy or inspiration to guide them. Must they at some point make that choice to either go full-on feelgood megachurch, or batten down the hatches and pull Brigham out from under the bus?

[Hagoth]

The bigger question I have is can you have a strict religion that is truly good, that truly edifies without shaming its members and disparaging everyone else, that can give what it promises rather than taking everything for the promise of an afterlife reward that it doesn't have the power to deliver? It would help if it was a true religion, but from what I can tell there are no true religions. So what would a strict, high demand religion look like that isn't built on BS and that actually gives more in this life than it takes? Is such a thing possible?

[blazerb]

The bigger question I have is can you have a strict religion that is truly good, that truly edifies without shaming its members and disparaging everyone else, that can give what it promises rather than taking everything for the promise of an afterlife reward that it doesn't have the power to deliver? It would help if it was a true religion, but from what I can tell there are no true religions. So what would a strict, high demand religion look like that isn't built on BS and that actually gives more in this life than it takes? Is such a thing possible?

If no one can point one out that exists currently, I doubt it's possible. The costly signaling necessary for such a group to thrive might mean that shame is an inherent part of the package as well as disparaging others. If it could be done, it would have happened already, in my opinion.

I used this type of argument in my TBM days for why I felt that the church was good. Of course, I see now that it's a non sequitur. Salusa Secundus creates amazing soldiers for House Corrino in Dune, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. However, it may be that there are those whose biological wiring means that they are more healthy in a high demand environment. How do those who cannot live in such a group coexist with those who must?

[alas]

Well, from a psychological viewpoint, there is a place for high demand religions in every society. As the philosopher Sartre said, most people do not want to be responsible for their own life. They want someone smarter who loves them to make all their decisions. They really want parents for life without any need to grow up. Then if things go badly, that other person is to blame, but if things go well, then they have a good life they get to enjoy. And if you look at modern society, most people do not want to “adult”. It is hard. They want the government to tell everybody to wear seatbelts and get vaccinated for polio, and as long as their life goes well, they are more than happy to have big brother watching them. But then if things don’t go well, because the rich keep getting richer while the poor keep getting poorer, and coal miners and car manufacturing workers are losing jobs and manufacturers are poisoning the world with pollution and overheating the world with carbon emissions, and crime keeps going up and police keep shooting people, and prices keep going up, while they earn less and less, and the world just gets crappy to live in, then they are quick to blame “big government” and elect an idiot who blames “big government” and Black people and the Mexicans and says you white Americans deserve better because you belong to a superior race……

So enter the dictator who promises to lead the country to success, and people will vote for them. As Hitler promised a starving Germany, that he would put bread on their tables again, and make cars that were actually affordable and put people back to work, and tells them they deserve better because they are a special and superior race of people. Well, when he did all those things for them like a good parent, they were more than willing to keep him in power long after he proved that he was also an abusive parent.

Or enter the high demand religion that treats new converts special by giving them a calling and a friend and nurtures them in the gospel and promises them financial reward for paying tithing and reward in the next life and tells them how special and smart they are to have found the true church, they are more than happy to turn over complete control of their life to that church. The religion uses the exact same things to gain control of the people as a dictator does. “Do as I say and you will be happy, because I care about you because you are special and better than other people, and I am so much smarter/in tune with God that I know how to lead you to a good life, so just follow me and don’t think for yourselves.”

Now, the question is, would you rather people who don’t want to have to think for themselves find a high demand religion or elect a trump?