Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

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Hagoth
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:11 pm

Maybe they should start using the temples the way Brother Joseph intended:

“When we had fasted for 24 hours and partaken of the Lord’s supper, namely a piece of bread as big as your double fist and a half a pint of wine in the temple, I was there and saw the Holy Ghost descend upon the heads of those present like cloven tongues of fire…” (Milo Andrus, Council of Seventy)

“After administering over a barrel of house-made sacramental wine to a congregation of some five hundred parishioners, Smith shouted, “Do not quench the Spirit,” encouraging those in attendance to drink liberally. Unsurprisingly, the assembly soon found the meeting to become rather progressively ecstatic. Several of the hierarchy, including Cowdery and much of the Smith family, reverted to prophesying in tongues while the congregation saw visions that Joseph directed them to see. From Joseph’s own account: ‘Brother George A. Smith arose and began to prophesy, when a noise was heard like the sound of a rushing mighty wind, which filled the Temple, and all the congregation simultaneously arose, being moved upon by an invisible power; many began to speak in tongues and prophesy; others saw glorious visions; and I beheld the Temple was filled with angels…” (Codi Noconi, The Psychedelic History of Mormonism)

“They consumed a barrel of wine and other liquors at the dedication of the Temple, enabling some of them to see angels, have vision, prophesy and dream dreams” (Cristopher Crary. Pioneer and personal Reminiscences).

“The fast was then broken by eating light wheat bread, and drinking as much wine as they saw proper… they began to prophesy, pronounce blessings upon their friends, and curses on their enemies” (John C. Bennett).

“You cannot have forgotten the scenes of drunkenness during the pretended endowment in Kirtland… I took care of Samuel H. Smith in one of the stands so deeply intoxicated that he could not nor did sense anything… but vomited the spit-box five times full, and his dear brother Don Carlos would empty it our the window” (William McLellin).

“…one of the brethren, lying flat on his back so full of the spirit (of drunkenness) that he could not sit up, hiccoughed out: ‘Now is the time to see visions.” Yea, verily it was. He spake as sprits gave him utterance, but not as the Spirit of God” (Braden-Kelly debate, p. 370).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by moksha » Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:29 pm

Perhaps Dallin Oaks ordering a diamond tiara for Ginny Thomas in order to help influence the proposed same-sex marriage reversal at the Supreme Court was a bit much. He should have foreseen all the other wives wanting one as well. Additionally, having the Osh Kosh Elders Quorum calling the staff of Senator Ron Johnson and having him deliver occasional kegs of Pabst Blue Ribbon to Justice Brett Kavanaugh was bound to create some jealousy between other Midwest wards who felt they had been passed over.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Angel
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by Angel » Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:51 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:53 pm
the scales are tipping to have more people like us.
What's the inactivity percentage?

The majority will not be led astray - wasn't that the key for discernment - just follow the crowd? The crowd has left.

Man, I want to feel like a rebel - a cool lone wolf, but if I'm just following the majority what does that say for anyone or anything?

What teams are forming? Who is on which base?
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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blazerb
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by blazerb » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:09 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:45 am
I think the leadership vetting process drastically reduces the risk of a disaffection at the Q15 level so we will never see that happen in the modern era. Uchtdorf is probably the closest we’ve seen where he “steps out of character” by being like-able and slightly progressive. We saw how that turned out when he was removed from the 1FP.

In regards to seeing a meeting of the apostles… we have!
Remember the leaked videos of pre Q12 Elder Gong teaching the apostles about worldly events? It was like watching a kindergarten class asking rapid fire questions that ended with Oaks asking if Julianne Assange was a confirmed homosexual.

If anything, watching the LDS leadership in action is nothing more than self congratulatory flagellation/flatulence. :lol:

Ironically, watching a lot of the exmo crowd is also nothing more than self congratulatory flagellation/flatulence!
I've watched the leaked videos. I felt like we did not see the real interaction between the 12. It felt to me that they had to play nice in front of the outsider, Gong. I know Gong was still high up, but he was not in the quorum at that time. The ones who talked were the most senior: Oaks and his obsession with homosexuals, Packer and his assertion that the church will never back down. Of course the church started to back down soon after just as it has done on every issue.

I will take some Gas-X and not worry too much about the downfall of the church. In my opinion, the monetary reserves that the church has built up makes the chances of it ceasing so remote that it's worthless to spend time on. The most that will happen is a gradual decrease in membership and maybe an end to the incredible over-representation of Mormons in the House and especially the Senate, again thinking about those videos.

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moksha
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by moksha » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:31 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:45 am
Uchtdorf is probably the closest we’ve seen where he “steps out of character” by being like-able and slightly progressive.
Uchtdorf grew up in Europe where he was exposed to mainstream Christianity, so he had that advantage.
Red Ryder wrote:In regards to seeing a meeting of the apostles… we have!
Remember the leaked videos of pre Q12 Elder Gong teaching the apostles about worldly events? It was like watching a kindergarten class asking rapid fire questions that ended with Oaks asking if Julianne Assange was a confirmed homosexual.
I was surprised by how much brighter Gong was than everyone else. He probably rose through the ranks by being the person with answers and workable ideas. No matter how smart, Gong will not be able to talk them out of their obsession against the LGBTQ community. That is part of the Salt Lake Curse and only can be lifted by one of the Brethren doing a good deed during a full moon.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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2bizE
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by 2bizE » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:25 pm

I think John does have some well placed sources in the COB. I think he has to purposefully keep things vague as not to Dox the sources. Remember not long ago, a leader in Utah County provided information on how the temple building committee is going crazy with Nelson naming off new locations left and right and the standard for determining where to build temples is no longer being followed.
~2bizE

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1smartdodog
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by 1smartdodog » Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:21 pm

I think it could have some validity. You look at the current prophet and he has upset the apple cart for really no reason other than ego. Having grown up in the same ward as RMN I can attest he is a bit of a narcissist. Not all together bad person just full of himself.

I can see how other members of the 12 wonder what the hell he is doing. Of course it is the system they set up. It is inevitable that at some point someone with an agenda will rise to the level of prophet and muck things up a little. There is nothing in the system to stop it.


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“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

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jfro18
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by jfro18 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:38 pm

2bizE wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:25 pm
I think John does have some well placed sources in the COB.
Yeah I have no doubt that he does. I have had a few (not many) people give me some interesting info from the website and I'm a nobody... John would clearly get info from those who would have way better access.

That said, I think you also never know how much the sources are exaggerating or how much of the 'disarray' will ever amount to anything. If it's just a process where they are having trouble agreeing on new policies it won't matter once they settle on one.

It's always interesting to hear about drama, but until you have something more concrete then interesting is really all it is.

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stealthbishop
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:18 pm

I do think we have to balance the exMo desire for the church to completely collapse and OTOH actual information on the state of the church and trends or news. I will likely always be interested in news about the church and what is happening.

I also have to recognize that with DW and I basically out or semi-active at best, we're seeing it through our own eyes.

I don't think the church cares per se about actual tithing revenue but instead I think they see it as a measure of ENGAGEMENT of the members. A barometer. I almost wonder if they saw a sharp drop in the US and CANADA and it caused concern and they are wondering what is the cause. Is it a canary in the coal mine of future member engagement levels?

I do think the incongruity between temple attendance and temple building is credible because we seem to be hearing it from a number of sources. They will definitely do the tried and true approach of GC talks and trainings to local leaders to emphasize temple attendance. The classic "guilt trip".

LGBTQIA+ issues will never disappear as long as LDS keep having children.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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moksha
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Re: Source Says There Is Disarray Among the Q15

Post by moksha » Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:39 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:18 pm
LGBTQIA+ issues will never disappear as long as LDS keep having children.
No Separation between Church and Hate.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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