POX policy gone!!!

[RubinHighlander]

The revelation was short lived because we learned the necessary things God intended.

And what "necessary things" have been learned?

I'm not going to out my TBM hat on to answer this. It doesn't fit and I tossed it.

However, FB comments so far are following this line of thinking:

God commanded Abraham to kill his son Isaac. Then changed his mind at the last second. Sometimes he uses children to teach us lessons.

WTF is that kind of thinking?????

Yup, the BOM also justifies sacrifice of innocent kids in a fire in order to bring judgement upon the wicked, but it's okay because they went to heaven.
How many suicides were there, directly related to the policy "revelation" change 4 years ago? Unlike the imaginary Isaac or the kids burned in the BOM there were REAL people that died because of those Fd up old rich homophobic COBlers!!! Keep grasping apologetic TBMs, but you ain't got nothing that will work here.

[crossmyheart]

How many suicides were there, directly related to the policy "revelation" change 4 years ago? Unlike the imaginary Isaac or the kids burned in the BOM there were REAL people that died because of those Fd up old rich homophobic COBlers!!! Keep grasping apologetic TBMs, but you ain't got nothing that will work here.

You know what needs to go viral? Is a list of all of the names of people who took their lives because of this revelation.

[blazerb]

I'm happy a small change has occurred. Like Alas said, gay people will still get exed in most places. Although this will give some cover for bishops and SPs who want to look the other way. DCs were mandatory for apostasy. They are not for fornication.

Still I can't believe that they pretty much ignore the pain this policy caused. The gaslighting this weekend will be strong. Maybe it's time to take up drinking.

[lostinmiddlemormonism]

How many suicides were there, directly related to the policy "revelation" change 4 years ago? Unlike the imaginary Isaac or the kids burned in the BOM there were REAL people that died because of those Fd up old rich homophobic COBlers!!! Keep grasping apologetic TBMs, but you ain't got nothing that will work here.

You know what needs to go viral? Is a list of all of the names of people who took their lives because of this revelation.

This

[jfro18]

How many suicides were there, directly related to the policy "revelation" change 4 years ago? Unlike the imaginary Isaac or the kids burned in the BOM there were REAL people that died because of those Fd up old rich homophobic COBlers!!! Keep grasping apologetic TBMs, but you ain't got nothing that will work here.

You know what needs to go viral? Is a list of all of the names of people who took their lives because of this revelation.

I mentioned that the policy caused suicides on my personal Twitter account and the #DezNat nutjobs jumped all over it... I was even told I was causing suicide by point it out. I'm not kidding... they said people talking about the Nov 15 policy caused more harm than the policy itself and that I was part of it.

So I don't know that getting names of Utah/LDS suicides is a great approach, and I know suicides aren't tracked like that anyway.

But anyone who argues the policy didn't lead to some taking their lives is in outright denial.

[Red Ryder]

Is there any evidence or data that shows a suicide directly tied to the policy?

The church has hated on gay people long before the policy excluded children of gay parents from getting baptized.

Never mind. I'm not advocating the idea that the policy caused anyone to directly commit suicide so need to call for evidence. Indirectly yes, based on the bad treatment from the church leaders and the history of hate directly from the mouth of Oaks et el.

I f'ing hate this church for the pain and suffering experienced by anyone hurt in the name of fake Jesus and fake revelation! Fnck Oaks, Nelson, and all of the other fake prophets and apostles.

I haven't had much time to contemplate this today and it's just starting to sink in.

We all have suffered some form of PTSD for believing in this church. I'm so done.

[jfro18]

Is there any evidence or data that shows a suicide directly tied to the policy?

The church has hated on gay people long before the policy excluded children of gay parents from getting baptized.

Never mind. I'm not advocating the idea that the policy caused anyone to directly commit suicide so need to call for evidence. Indirectly yes, based on the bad treatment from the church leaders and the history of hate directly from the mouth of Oaks et el.

My thoughts are along those lines - you're not going to find a stat that says "23 people committed suicide over this policy," but you had better believe it played a role in many of them. We could see that just in the stories that have come out over the last 3 years of gay members (esp teens) taking their lives and the increasing stress that policy put on them.

I f'ing hate this church for the pain and suffering experienced by anyone hurt in the name of fake Jesus and fake revelation! Fnck Oaks, Nelson, and all of the other fake prophets and apostles.

I haven't had much time to contemplate this today and it's just starting to sink in.

We all have suffered some form of PTSD for believing in this church. I'm so done.

Yep. The name change stuff was annoying mostly because so many giddily proclaimed it revelation. This one is angering to no end because it caused real harm and stress in many people's lives and FOR NOTHING. How anyone could defend and celebrate it is beyond me.

[2bizE]

In an internet world, you can't just hope no one remembers what you said in the past, because this is what President Nelson said in February 2016:

https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php? ... type=cmsid

That led to the Utah-based faith's new policy regarding same-sex Mormon couples — that they would be labeled "apostates" and that their children would not be allowed baptism and other LDS religious rites until they turn 18.

"Each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation," Nelson, next in line for the Mormon presidency, told the faith's young adults in the first official explanation of the hotly debated policy's origins. "It was our privilege as apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson."

Nelson explained that revelation from the Lord to his servants is a sacred process.

"The [three-member] First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together and share all the Lord has directed us to understand and to feel, individually and collectively," he said. "And then, we watch the Lord move upon the president of the church to proclaim the Lord's will."

Whatever. God sure has a hard time making his mind up about things sometimes. Maybe he got one of his late night revelatory scribbles mixed up or something.

Well, that explanation of monsons revelation makes them look like a bunch of asses now.
They share the change with the same excitement as when they received it. I hope TBMs can see through this.

[DPRoberts]

The revelation was short lived because we learned the necessary things God intended.

And what "necessary things" have been learned?

I'm not going to out my TBM hat on to answer this. It doesn't fit and I tossed it.

However, FB comments so far are following this line of thinking:

God commanded Abraham to kill his son Isaac. Then changed his mind at the last second. Sometimes he uses children to teach us lessons.

WTF is that kind of thinking?????

One could also use Holland's wrong road story. God wanted the brethren to know the policy was wrong - by trying it.

[crossmyheart]

Is there any evidence or data that shows a suicide directly tied to the policy?

The church has hated on gay people long before the policy excluded children of gay parents from getting baptized.

Never mind. I'm not advocating the idea that the policy caused anyone to directly commit suicide so need to call for evidence. Indirectly yes, based on the bad treatment from the church leaders and the history of hate directly from the mouth of Oaks et el.

My thoughts are along those lines - you're not going to find a stat that says "23 people committed suicide over this policy," but you had better believe it played a role in many of them. We could see that just in the stories that have come out over the last 3 years of gay members (esp teens) taking their lives and the increasing stress that policy put on them.

I f'ing hate this church for the pain and suffering experienced by anyone hurt in the name of fake Jesus and fake revelation! Fnck Oaks, Nelson, and all of the other fake prophets and apostles.

I haven't had much time to contemplate this today and it's just starting to sink in.

We all have suffered some form of PTSD for believing in this church. I'm so done.

Yep. The name change stuff was annoying mostly because so many giddily proclaimed it revelation. This one is angering to no end because it caused real harm and stress in many people's lives and FOR NOTHING. How anyone could defend and celebrate it is beyond me.

I knew I had read about it before:
https://kutv.com/news/local/mama-dragon ... s-children
https://outsidethebookofmormonbelt.com/2016/01/

I am sure it would be difficult to prove the suicides are directly tied to the 2015 policy/revelation, but I am sure the Mama Dragons are aware of many who took their lives as a result of the prevailing stance against homosexuality.

In the end, there is no denying that people were immeasurably hurt by this.

[RubinHighlander]

We all have suffered some form of PTSD for believing in this church. I'm so done.

Truth! Even if we can't find direct connections, we here all know how much mental anguish and other problems in our lives are directly attributed to our activity and post exit dealings with TSCC. The damage runs deep for many of us and much of it in ways we don't even understand or have identified.

Last night DW and I were talking about this policy/revelation reversal and she said it made her just as upset as the day it was first leaked 4 years ago. It was in fact the final straw that broke her shelf back then. We were both just reeling from the pain we went through on our faith crisis, but it was more painful to try and accept the fact we spent so many years in that corrupt cult!

Today I am feeling a lot of sadness that so many of my friends and family are still in it, trying to make it work and paying their hard earned dollars, time and mental dedication to it.

[MoPag]

Mormon Stories did a great podcast on it last night. I didn't catch all of it, (and I can't link it because I'm at work) But I would highly recompensed listening. It's heartbreaking to listen to the people whose lives have been really screwed up by all of this, but it also really helped me process things.

[oliblish]

Mormon Stories did a great podcast on it last night. I didn't catch all of it, (and I can't link it because I'm at work) But I would highly recompensed listening. It's heartbreaking to listen to the people whose lives have been really screwed up by all of this, but it also really helped me process things.

I am listening to it now on the Mormon Stories Facebook page. Just be warned it is 5 1/2 hours long...

[Corsair]

So, instead of being excommunicated for apostasy, married gays will simply be excommunicated for fornication.

This would be setting a trap for themselves for ostensibly unrelated reasons. Part of the apologetic defense of Joseph Smith's polygamy is that he did not consumate most(?) of the marriages, and certainly not the polyandrous ones. The CES Letter Reply from Stallion Cornell is certainly one of many that simply says we do not have firm evidence that Joseph had sex with his wives. He did not have children with anyone but Emma, after all. Marriage does not imply sex, apparently.

So now I'm waiting for some gay couple to use this line on a zealous bishop. "Can you prove that we are living an immoral lifestyle? Maybe we are just roommates who happen to have these foster children..."

[alas]

So, instead of being excommunicated for apostasy, married gays will simply be excommunicated for fornication.

This would be setting a trap for themselves for ostensibly unrelated reasons. Part of the apologetic defense of Joseph Smith's polygamy is that he did not consumate most(?) of the marriages, and certainly not the polyandrous ones. The CES Letter Reply from Stallion Cornell is certainly one of many that simply says we do not have firm evidence that Joseph had sex with his wives. He did not have children with anyone but Emma, after all. Marriage does not imply sex, apparently.

So now I'm waiting for some gay couple to use this line on a zealous bishop. "Can you prove that we are living an immoral lifestyle? Maybe we are just roommates who happen to have these foster children..."

Or someone like my sister who has been roommates with her non sexual friend for 30 years and they are considering getting married for the legal benefits of survivorship and SS. They have been a household, sharing everything, but if one of them dies, they are nothing but strangers? That is just wrong. So, they are considering marriage for financial reasons, not sexual reasons.

What s the church gonna do about them?

[IT_Veteran]

So, instead of being excommunicated for apostasy, married gays will simply be excommunicated for fornication.

This would be setting a trap for themselves for ostensibly unrelated reasons. Part of the apologetic defense of Joseph Smith's polygamy is that he did not consumate most(?) of the marriages, and certainly not the polyandrous ones. The CES Letter Reply from Stallion Cornell is certainly one of many that simply says we do not have firm evidence that Joseph had sex with his wives. He did not have children with anyone but Emma, after all. Marriage does not imply sex, apparently.

So now I'm waiting for some gay couple to use this line on a zealous bishop. "Can you prove that we are living an immoral lifestyle? Maybe we are just roommates who happen to have these foster children..."

At first I thought this might leave room for married couples too. I thought maybe some bishops will just leave it alone.

Then I re-read the quote from Oaks:

While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline.

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I believe in Handbook 1 it lists all of the “serious transgressions” under the section that requires a disciplinary council to be convened. If I am wrong, I’m curious to see how they treat the Handbook 1 updates.

I’d put money that same-sex marriage just gets moved out from under apostasy and into its own category.

[slavereeno]

So, instead of being excommunicated for apostasy, married gays will simply be excommunicated for fornication.

This would be setting a trap for themselves for ostensibly unrelated reasons. Part of the apologetic defense of Joseph Smith's polygamy is that he did not consumate most(?) of the marriages, and certainly not the polyandrous ones. The CES Letter Reply from Stallion Cornell is certainly one of many that simply says we do not have firm evidence that Joseph had sex with his wives. He did not have children with anyone but Emma, after all. Marriage does not imply sex, apparently.

So now I'm waiting for some gay couple to use this line on a zealous bishop. "Can you prove that we are living an immoral lifestyle? Maybe we are just roommates who happen to have these foster children..."

I love this line of reasoning. Haha!

[AdmiralHoldo]

For me, the big takeaway is that God sometimes inflicts pain on people deliberately and for no good reason, and He isn't even a little bit sorry. This is why I'm a misotheist, guys.

When I screw up and hurt my kids, I apologize to them. Your move, God.