Why are we not discussing the Brad Wilcox fireside?

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alas
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Re: Why are we not discussing the Brad Wilcox fireside?

Post by alas » Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:04 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:11 pm
moksha wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:46 am
Here is a historic look at how the discussion of racism in Mormonism has changed over the years:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74 ... -of-color/
Yikes. Just suggesting a non-white apostle is heresy.

I love it when people say "I don't have a racist bone in my body," amidst racists statements. The problem is not the bones, it's the wet, squishy parts. Like the guy in that post, I am married into a non-white family. That doesn't inoculate me from racism or accusations of racism when the shoe fits. As a matter of fact, I suspect that two of my phalanges, one rib, and a metacarpal are leaning toward racist.
Yes, anyone who says, “I’m not racist.” Is really just saying “I refuse to look at my own racism.” Because to an extent, every human born is born with ingroup preferences. There is BS going around that says racism has to be taught and that is not quite right. It is a BIGGER problem than just what is taught. We are born with instincts that make us prefer our own kind. It is fear of out groups. And when we lived in little tribes the instinct served us well. But our tribe has become multiracial/multicultural. This instinct can be bad as when it becomes xenophobia. Blacks have this same instinctive preference and can be just as guilty of preferring blacks over any other race. This has to be *unlearned* in the best of us, especially those with the most power. But as an intelligent species, we can learn to override instinct. And we need to in our modern culture where “us” is all Americans. There is no evidence that any one race is better anyway, and the American ideal is equality for all. All of us. And “us” is a pretty big group. In order to get to equality for all, we have to unlearn this inborn preference for our own group, and expand our definition of “us” to all humans.

Most of us never get there. I know I am not, although I try. Can I say I would be fine if my daughter brought home a black boy? Well, I would have to swallow hard and get to know the young man, just as when my daughter brought home a girl, or when my daughter brought home a part Native American, and when my daughter brought home a guy who grew up in the street gangs of New York. (Although, I must admit the the “street gangs of NY” was the worst. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched “West Side Story”) so, am I racist? You bet your sweet bippy that I am *and* that I am trying to get over my fear of “different than us.”

So, to a certain extent, everyone needs to be taught that all races are good and not to automatically assume that “like me” is best. If this was all there was, it would be a small problem.

But there is also that learned part. It is very easy for humans to take what is instinctive and enlarge it. We want to see “our group,” “our race,” “our culture,” as best, so in our own insecurity we magnify the feeling to keep us feeling good about ourselves when compared to others. Insecure people are usually worse, because they have a bigger need to bolster their own superiority. Then there is the history of slavery. In order to keep their conscience from eating them alive, white slave owners had to think of blacks as slightly less than human. Otherwise they were horrible people for treating other humans that way. So to lessen their guilt, they exaggerated this “us” and “them” instinct. They became very racist. They had to in order to live in their society. So, then they teach others of their group they they are better and because it is the group in power, then we have white superiority, white supremacy. Or we have misogyny, or we have antiSemitism. This white/male superiority is taught in American culture. This is bad enough when taught to whites males but turns into self hatred when taught to others. It is taught to blacks in America, and we have sort of a racial hierarchy with the races arranged by skin tone. Whites are “better” than Asians, who are “better” than Mexicans, who are “better” than blacks…sort of like India’s caste system. And in America blacks show “preference for white” by preferring lighter skinned blacks, parents are happy to see a lighter skinned baby, and little black girls want the white blue eyed baby doll because they have been taught, against their own instincts, that white is best.

Yeah, so we all have a *lot* to unlearn. I’m working on it, how ‘bout you?

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moksha
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Re: Why are we not discussing the Brad Wilcox fireside?

Post by moksha » Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:41 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:04 pm
Maybe I shouldn’t have watched “West Side Story”
"When you're a Stormcloak,
You're a Stormcloak all the way
From your first battle armor
To your last dyin' day.
When you're a Stormcloak,
Let them do what they can,
You got brothers around,
You're a family man!"

-- Skyrim Story

Then your sister meets an Imperial at the big dance...
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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MoPag
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Re: Why are we not discussing the Brad Wilcox fireside?

Post by MoPag » Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:54 am

moksha wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:41 pm
alas wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:04 pm
Maybe I shouldn’t have watched “West Side Story”
"When you're a Stormcloak,
You're a Stormcloak all the way
From your first battle armor
To your last dyin' day.
When you're a Stormcloak,
Let them do what they can,
You got brothers around,
You're a family man!"

-- Skyrim Story

Then your sister meets an Imperial at the big dance...
I love you Penguin!!


Okay, but didn't you guys have Black Student Union at your high schools? Our BSU would always do these awesome dances and pep rallies. And the white kids in BSU would always struggle a little bit to keep the rhythm.

Oh and here's round 2 of Brad's apology

https://vm.tiktok.com/TTPdBAQ5RS/

It's pretty epicly bad.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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stealthbishop
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Re: Why are we not discussing the Brad Wilcox fireside?

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:16 pm

AllieOop wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:38 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:51 am
Just goes to show the church is continuing to dodge and hide the fact the priesthood ban wasn’t “from God”, but rather from the racist Brigham Young.

Perhaps its time to throw Brother Brigham under the bus, apologize for past racism and come out and say the priesthood ban was wrong.



Actually, I felt BY was already pretty much thrown under the bus with the essay on this, but that would finish the job!
I think this is one of the major points of this situation. This essay was not taught nor used in a widespread way. Lots of progressive LDS people (and PostMOs, and ExMos) knew about them but most everyone else including leaders didn't.

I totally understand how large institutions have strong urges to "save face" but I think the church tried to have it both ways and we are seeing the results. Because there was no definitive public push on this essay and to teach it on a consistent basis, it didn't sink in or do much except for maybe providing some cover or camouflage or plausible deniability.

Wilcox is just a symptom of what happened here. The reluctance to say that apostles and prophets are fallible and make mistakes is coming back to bite the church over and over again. Infallibility of apostles and prophets is not only not humble (or even scriptural), it's unhealthy and toxic. It's arrogance. And Wilcox certainly came across that way. His antics were a window into where the church culture is at right now.

Like you said AllieOop, there is evidence of him saying this stuff multiple times and he was allowed to continue on and on and on. He continued to get offers and opportunities to share this message with youth all over. Nobody said anything until now. This is the church culture at this point. It will take enormous amounts of work and time to change it.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Red Ryder
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Re: Why are we not discussing the Brad Wilcox fireside?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:07 pm

stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:16 pm
(Snip…)
His antics were a window into where the church culture is at right now.

Like you said AllieOop, there is evidence of him saying this stuff multiple times and he was allowed to continue on and on and on. He continued to get offers and opportunities to share this message with youth all over. Nobody said anything until now. This is the church culture at this point. It will take enormous amounts of work and time to change it.
Probably won’t be achieved until the average age of the Q15 is 48. So perhaps in the year 2149? :lol:
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stealthbishop
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Re: Why are we not discussing the Brad Wilcox fireside?

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:09 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:07 pm
stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:16 pm
(Snip…)
His antics were a window into where the church culture is at right now.

Like you said AllieOop, there is evidence of him saying this stuff multiple times and he was allowed to continue on and on and on. He continued to get offers and opportunities to share this message with youth all over. Nobody said anything until now. This is the church culture at this point. It will take enormous amounts of work and time to change it.
Probably won’t be achieved until the average age of the Q15 is 48. So perhaps in the year 2149? :lol:
Absolutely. Certainly not in my lifetime. It's totally true. A whole generation or more will need to pass the way of the earth before they get caught up. They're always behind.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Hagoth
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Re: Why are we not discussing the Brad Wilcox fireside?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:32 am

AllieOop wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:38 pm
Perhaps its time to throw Brother Brigham under the bus, apologize for past racism and come out and say the priesthood ban was wrong.
Actually, I felt BY was already pretty much thrown under the bus with the essay on this, but that would finish the job!
[/quote]
True men of God would be willing to spend some time under the bus themselves. We don't have any of those.

I agree, Allie, Brigham has become the token bus fodder. They have carefully turned him into an almost comedic figure. "That Brigham Young, what a character. You never know what wacky thing might come out of his mouth." So we shrug him off as a product of the zany Wild West and comfort ourselves with the assurance that he was just a conduit for the priesthood to eventually make its way to the bastions of honor and decency that look down their noses at us from the high seats today.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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