The kids won't do what they're asked!

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MerrieMiss
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The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by MerrieMiss » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:14 pm

I have a friend who was at a Stake Primary meeting last week. One Primary president said that her presidency is seeing more and more kids refusing to do things, like give talks, say prayers (Good for them, I say!). The Stake Primary President said that the Stake President is concerned because it’s always been difficult to make kids do things, but their parents are now refusing do to things (like callings, pray, speak in church) because many people are having a hard time with the church and their testimonies. Another Primary President said that she’s had three friends in the past month come to her with their issues, and they’re all different, to which the Stake Primary President responded that the Stake President says that’s what’s so difficult in fighting this – all the issues are different so how do you combat so many issues? The Stake Primary President suggested we all keep our covenants and endure to the end because everything will be sorted out then. Helpful words indeed.

I have all of this second hand. So I may not have it all right, but I find it fascinating. I live in a very orthodox TBM ward. I can see how some wards in the Stake are less so. I spend my time in church looking around me wondering who these people are, are there any here? I know there must be, but I have no idea who they are. I guess this was comforting since it confirms they are out there even if I don’t know who they are.

I guess what’s funny about this, not really funny – sad, more like it, is that the Stake Primary President and Stake President and everyone else who is fighting this thing are fighting a losing battle. The product truly is no good. And good for those kids. I wish I had said no when I was a kid. I carried resentment for many years for being compelled to do things I didn’t want to and didn’t believe in.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:09 pm

I had a similar conversation with someone who worked for many years with the YSA ward in our area. One of the things this woman told me, is that she simply couldn't understand young adults, and "their lack of faith." When I asked what she meant, she told me that they are always refusing to do things, they don't accept callings, and they come and go as they please. So I said, they don't lack faith, they've just realized that they don't want to do what a bunch of old geezers tell them they have to do; and if she thought I was sympathetic to her position rather than the millennials, she was nuts. We had a good laugh over it, but it's pretty telling.

I think one of the biggest challenges to the church right now, is that you have generational TBM's who have never questioned a thing in their lives, followed THEIR leaders, and are completely flabbergasted at almost an entire generation that refuses to do this. And the older folks' only recourse is to try and compel/manipulate and coerce the younger generation into doing what THEY did when they were young. And it's simply not working, because the younger folks are voting with their feet, and just bagging the nonsense. I think it's utterly fascinating, and I can't wait to see what the next decade or so will bring.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

20/20hind
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by 20/20hind » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:18 pm

Mormonism is an extroverts paradise. Some adults and kids just dont like doing that stuff. Add to that the issues that members are becoming aware of, its just to much, and they discover that they can say no. Leadership has no use for people who say no. Your absolutely rights its a bad product and people are waking up to that fact. Who the hell likes 3 hours of church, its just mind numbing and boring. Then the other meetings on top of that.

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Brent
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by Brent » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:50 pm

Image

Korihor
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by Korihor » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:31 am

What I love about these type of stories is the old guard of TBM Baby Boomers currently in control is generally a rather intelligent group, but they are illiterate to the writing on the wall.
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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Enoch Witty
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by Enoch Witty » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:22 am

I felt the Spirit™ while reading this post. Youth rebellions = best rebellions.

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Corsair
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by Corsair » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:14 am

Korihor wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:31 am
What I love about these type of stories is the old guard of TBM Baby Boomers currently in control is generally a rather intelligent group, but they are illiterate to the writing on the wall.
The realization is that the church needs the youth more than the youth need the institutional church. LDS leadership won't see it this way, of course. But the LDS church has held their policies and practices tightly in favor of the institution. Very little local adaptation is allowed and certainly the bishops and stake presidents hold inviolate veto power over new ideas. This has eroded any sense of ownership over church operation by the average non-leader simply wanting to worship Jesus and study the scriptures in their own way.

Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, John Dehlin, and Kate Kelly are all various incarnations of this problem that this prophet led church fails to fully comprehend. The fact that young Mormons are continuing this idea is going to be a huge problem going forward. We have spent the last several general conferences amused with "Stay in the Boat", "Give Brother Joseph a Break", and "Doubt Your Doubts" based on the initial doctrinal incursions of Snuffer, Waterman, Dehlin, and Kelly (and Larsen, and Runnels, and many, many others). Let's see if turning down callings is the newest meme they will start preaching against in passive aggressive conference talks.

asa
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by asa » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm

i think you have hit the nail on the head ( sorry for the cliche). Some significant minority of members not only feel the 15 have lost touch with the needs of members but lost touch with God. Often they think that private spiritual worship takes precedence over authoritative mandates from a bunch of power hungry old guys who are paid very well for their insipid talks. Last weekend approximately 1000 former or present LDS members ( calling them Snufferites is inaccurate ) gathered in St George for a conference entitled the Doctrine of Christ. Speaker after speaker told how the church had abused them and then excommunicated them because they would not exactly toe the institutional line . Speaking too much of Christ , asking hard questions on historical or doctrinal issues ,or engaging in practices that once were common or mandatory like rebaptism , were grounds for excommunication. The individuals who by design have no designated leader and reject formal organization or hierarchy are not only preaching what they believe is the pure doctrine of Christ ,but are raising money for a temple and publishing a new set of scriptures which are basically the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon ,the Old and New Testament based upon the Joseph Smith Translation and a dramatically revised Doctrine and Covenants which includes the Lectures on Faith but delete sections 110 and 138 et alia. The LDS church has always been prone to schisms but it has been a very long time since one like this has been seen. The risk to the LDS church is always greatest not from those who reject the concept of revealed religion but from those who seek it and conclude it can't be found any longer in the church. The former just drift away into the night and typically from religious practice . The latter directly confront the failures of the institution by providing a more excellent way. No wonder Snuffer is prominent on the " enemies list"

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Random
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by Random » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:40 pm

asa wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm
Last weekend approximately 1000 former or present LDS members ( calling them Snufferites is inaccurate ) gathered in St George for a conference entitled the Doctrine of Christ. Speaker after speaker told how the church had abused them and then excommunicated them because they would not exactly toe the institutional line . Speaking too much of Christ , asking hard questions on historical or doctrinal issues ,or engaging in practices that once were common or mandatory like rebaptism , were grounds for excommunication.
Hm. I only recall two who said that; the husband and wife who spoke first (speaking separately, for those who don't know). And a couple of big Samoans (right?) acted as bouncers to grab onto them and force them out of the church building when they had the audacity to try to bear their testimonies after being told not to. (iirc, he was able to finish his testimony, but she could not even begin hers) This doesn't mean others didn't say something like that, but I don't recall it. If you do recall who else, I would appreciate a refresher to my memory.

The venue held about 1,000 people. On Saturday, it was maybe 2/3-3/4 full. Nearly full on Sunday (Snuffer spoke that day; always more people show up when he talks).

edited to be more clear that the Samoans were the bouncers, not the speakers
Last edited by Random on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
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Random
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by Random » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:46 pm

asa wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm
. . . excommunicated them because they would not exactly toe the institutional line . Speaking too much of Christ , asking hard questions on historical or doctrinal issues ,or engaging in practices that once were common or mandatory like rebaptism , were grounds for excommunication.
Mm-hm. Taking the sacrament with wine, eating huge hunks of bread instead of a bit so small you can barely see it. All without ecclesiastical endorsement. Last I heard from people's experiences, if you didn't mention [current prophet] in your testimony of f&t day, you would get called in. There are key words that, it appears, the local leaders are being trained to notice as warning signals. Words like, "personal relationship with Christ," "second comforter," and so on.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by Random » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:54 pm

asa wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm
publishing a new set of scriptures which are basically the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon ,the Old and New Testament based upon the Joseph Smith Translation and a dramatically revised Doctrine and Covenants which includes the Lectures on Faith but delete sections 110 and 138 et alia. The LDS church has always been prone to schisms but it has been a very long time since one like this has been seen.
I think there's a thread on this on NOM. (I've been looking at what feels like hundreds of posts and it's getting late, but I'm pretty sure one of the first threads I read and commented on was that one.)

asa wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm
The risk to the LDS church is always greatest not from those who reject the concept of revealed religion but from those who seek it and conclude it can't be found any longer in the church. The former just drift away into the night and typically from religious practice . The latter directly confront the failures of the institution by providing a more excellent way. No wonder Snuffer is prominent on the " enemies list"
I would agree. And there is a definite reason he's on the "enemies list" - It's because he's having a lot of success (most people, from what I've seen, who leave that movement don't return to the LDS Church). Between him and NOM/emo reddit people, I'm sure there's a huge dip in tithing and other donations, a huge rise in people resigning or getting ex'd.

I think there's a reason the Corp freaked out when the slide show showed up on Mormon Leaks, even though several (many?) people did not believe it was from the Corp until they proved it by demanding it be pulled (Streisand effect).
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

asa
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by asa » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:31 pm

My reference to ' speaker after speaker" was admittedly unclear. i was referring to the individuals who bore their testimonies in the 6 pm Sat session at the Hilton not the main session in the Cox Auditorium . Sorry

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Random
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Re: The kids won't do what they're asked!

Post by Random » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:16 pm

asa wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:31 pm
My reference to ' speaker after speaker" was admittedly unclear. i was referring to the individuals who bore their testimonies in the 6 pm Sat session at the Hilton not the main session in the Cox Auditorium . Sorry
Oh, okay. I didn't go to that meeting. I went to the boonies near Leeds with a group of friends, instead. Did they end up needing to have a second session? I know they were concerned about not having enough room for everyone (a main reason I went elsewhere).

And I relistened to the talks I referred to earlier, and can't find any references that said either of the married couple was able to reach the podium. Apparently I was "up in the night."
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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