Hope or Hopeless???

[Bloodhound98]

Thank you thank you to all your replies. I like peering through peep stones and your stories! Lol I do feel that the people with Orthodox LDS upbringings have the most backlash personally and struggle the most and are probably the most angry. My goal is never get there but who knows. Thanks again for the love and replies. Keep em coming if you have more.

[MoPag]

First of all, welcome to NOM.

I do feel that the people with Orthodox LDS upbringings have the most backlash personally and struggle the most and are probably the most angry. My goal is never get there but who knows. Thanks again for the love and replies. Keep em coming if you have more.

Anger can be healthy. But like a lot of previous posters have stated, if it's not your thing, that's okay. Everyone is on their own path. Just because we are not on the same path doesn't mean we can't support each other.

[wtfluff]

Welcome Bloodhound98.

it seems like all of you or most of you just kind of bash the Church.

Would you mind defining what you mean by "kind of bash the church"?

Does that make me naive? Am I hopeful or Hopeless???

Personally, I believe it is naive to think that one person can change a billion dollar real-estate investment company masquerading as a church, unless of course you're on the board of directors?

What say you?

Please if you are angry don't bother responding.

I say: Yep, I'm angry, but I'll respond anyway, and leave the anger to other posts...

[Bloodhound98]

Here's my point. You and I presume most of you/us know about the awful and untruthful things the Church has done. I get anger being part of the litany of emotions being felt in this forum. But anger doesn't help solve anything. My buddy went to all his friends and he just flat out was angry. His friends alienated him and want nothing to do with his Anti-Mormon bashing. Are they conditioned to say/feel that? Of course I and you all know that. But what progress did he make? All he did was shut off 9/10 of his friends and family.
Now I have gone about a much more constructive approach. I ask my Dad and siblings if they know about the origins of the Book of Abraham? Saying did you know Joey loved 14 year old girls and threatened other married women isn't exactly what any TBM wants to hear. I read a lot of bashing on this site and many more on others.
Again I said in previous posts I'm a fighter. I don't want to appethetically lay down and let my friends and family go about their naive lives. I would like to help them and I think if people weren't so angry when they talk about this stuff it could actually happen.
I fully admit that in one more month I might have a different tune. However for now I can't help but to not be angry and try to find solutions! This church has many many flaws but I can't see how we are any different than the rest of them. So why not change and evolve into something better?????

[wtfluff]

Here's my point. You and I presume most of you/us know about the awful and untruthful things the Church has done. I get anger being part of the litany of emotions being felt in this forum. But anger doesn't help solve anything. My buddy went to all his friends and he just flat out was angry. His friends alienated him and want nothing to do with his Anti-Mormon bashing. Are they conditioned to say/feel that? Of course I and you all know that. But what progress did he make? All he did was shut off 9/10 of his friends and family.
Now I have gone about a much more constructive approach. I ask my Dad and siblings if they know about the origins of the Book of Abraham? Saying did you know Joey loved 14 year old girls and threatened other married women isn't exactly what any TBM wants to hear. I read a lot of bashing on this site and many more on others.
Again I said in previous posts I'm a fighter. I don't want to appethetically lay down and let my friends and family go about their naive lives. I would like to help them and I think if people weren't so angry when they talk about this stuff it could actually happen.
I fully admit that in one more month I might have a different tune. However for now I can't help but to not be angry and try to find solutions! This church has many many flaws but I can't see how we are any different than the rest of them. So why not change and evolve into something better?????

OK... I assume you're replying to me... So is your definition of "bashing": Telling unsightly truths about the church?

And I agree that anger might not solve anything, but that doesn't mean folks don't have the right to be angry. Maybe folks express their anger on NOM so they don't end up like your buddy...

[2bizE]

One thing to point out Bloodhound is everyone of us NOMs, as we sometimes call ourselves, have been at the same point of hope vs hopelessness. We have reviewed the many historical issues of the church. Many of us, myself included, are stuck. We don't know how to proceed. We recognize the church has played important and positive roles in our lives, but after reviewing and contemplating and praying about the historical problems, we believe the church is not exactly what it proports to be. Do we abandon faith? How do we share this information with family and spouse? Moving forward in either direction is hard...and so we support each other as our beliefs evolve.

[Lithium Sunset]

But anger doesn't help solve anything. My buddy went to all his friends and he just flat out was angry. But what progress did he make?

Now I have gone about a much more constructive approach.

Again I said in previous posts I'm a fighter. I don't want to appethetically lay down and let my friends and family go about their naive lives. I would like to help them and I think if people weren't so angry when they talk about this stuff it could actually happen.

I fully admit that in one more month I might have a different tune. However for now I can't help but to not be angry and try to find solutions!

Haha. This makes me think of my first couple months. What a roller coaster the first 6 months were for me. I remember writing up a list of things I believed and didn't believe anymore. That list went into the rubbish bin less than two months later.
I know you said you are not patient, and I see you are judging (learning from) the path your friend chose, but I would caution you like others have, to pace yourself and try to be more fluid. Just keep learning and soak it all in before you tactfully rush to get everyone out haha. There is no rush. Plan out your solutions and feel free to try them out, but try not to be so hard on your friend. Acting out in anger may or may not be productive but I do not believe that feeling the anger is wrong. It is very much a part of the process, whether we like it or not, and how much better off are we to acknowledge our anger and move beyond it.

Hope you keep posting. I'm interested to see where you settle. And it will not take you long to realize this is a great group. Accepting, encouraging, and supportive, even if sprinkled with occasional anger

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

Bloodhound98,

Welcome to NOM. I hope you enjoy your stay.

Here's my point. You and I presume most of you/us know about the awful and untruthful things the Church has done. I get anger being part of the litany of emotions being felt in this forum. But anger doesn't help solve anything. My buddy went to all his friends and he just flat out was angry. His friends alienated him and want nothing to do with his Anti-Mormon bashing. Are they conditioned to say/feel that? Of course I and you all know that. But what progress did he make? All he did was shut off 9/10 of his friends and family.

The example of your friend seems to be more toward the harmful end of what I'll call an anger fixation spectrum. I'm reminded of one of my toddlers who would throw some outrageous fits, crying, screaming, spitting. It wasn't pretty, and it was not only not helpful, it was counter productive. If someone stays fixated in an angry state like that, seems to me their life will be pretty messed up.

But, have you ever considered that anger can have benefits?

• https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/mark/3.1-5?lang=eng#4
• http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar03/whenanger.aspx
• https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... ion=163107

Some of us are even keeled, and lack the passion needed to take action in a lot of situations (me). Anger can motivate some to do good works they might not otherwise do.

In addition, some of us have lost family and other loved ones simply because we cannot believe the Church's truth claims which are demonstrably false. If I missed that your wife left you because of your disbelief, I apologize. If she's by your side on all of this, maybe it would help to ponderize what it would be like if she left you and took your children away from you simply because you valued truth, looked at the evidence rationally, and could no longer believe what she believes.

If you Google other ex-religionist (ex-Muslim, ex-JW, ex-Scientolgist, etc.) you'll see the betrayal and harm some churches cause results in similar anger, fear, sorrow, and pain on those ex-forums and blogs. I submit that it would be unhealthy for many of us to not express the natural anger we have felt.

Now I have gone about a much more constructive approach. I ask my Dad and siblings if they know about the origins of the Book of Abraham? Saying did you know Joey loved 14 year old girls and threatened other married women isn't exactly what any TBM wants to hear. I read a lot of bashing on this site and many more on others.
Again I said in previous posts I'm a fighter. I don't want to appethetically lay down and let my friends and family go about their naive lives. I would like to help them and I think if people weren't so angry when they talk about this stuff it could actually happen.
I fully admit that in one more month I might have a different tune. However for now I can't help but to not be angry and try to find solutions! This church has many many flaws but I can't see how we are any different than the rest of them. So why not change and evolve into something better?????

I admire your desire to make a difference in the Church. Like you and Korihor, for a short time I thought I'd do this. I soon learned I don't have the level of desire or personal constitution to do what it takes.

Another person I admire for their determination to make a change from within the LDS Church is Bill Reel. You might want to check out his Mormon Discussions Podcast.

Best wishes,
Zack

[Bloodhound98]

Zack I feel like you make my point. I fully recognize that I might feel different in 2 hours or 2 months and maybe never. However, you and a couple of you have artistically and eloquently stood your ground and kindly defended other people's views. I love it and it's through reading posts like that, that make me keep my course.
I guess it's just a personal choice to be angry or not. I chose not and that to me makes sense.
My wife btw is still very active but fully supports my feelings and perhaps doesn't want to dig down this rabbit hole with me. She was very open minded in the beginning and claims she probably never thought the church was the "Only True Church" as I have grown up thinking.
I'm lucky I have her in my life and I can't imagine how it would be dividing a family because of beliefs. Women (most not all) in my experience are more emotionally driven and the Church is a very emotional entity if you let it be.
Seriously thanks for all the posts. I love the links. I read them and love everything that all of you have posted.

[NewLight]

The resident lurker chimes in…

Welcome Bloodhound98 – I can totally relate to the emotions you feel and the people on here who have said to take it slow are giving wise advice. You are not in a race to get anywhere and there is a lot to consider. The advice I got of taking things slow over on the stayLDS forum where I was somewhat active for a time was very helpful as I navigated the new waters.

As I learned of the true history of the church and tuned into social issues more, I thought “I’ll stay in – I can be a catalyst for change”. And that’s what I tried for close to four years –
• As the 1nd assistant in High Priests I decided to teach lessons that didn’t necessarily focus on following the dogma of the church. I taught from Chieko Okazaki a time or two (definitely a woman ahead of her time and someone who still make church “work”). For my efforts, I was released when the HPGL was called into the High Council. The new HPGL kept the other assistant and released me. I was never asked by him to teach again.
• In Sunday School Presidency, I would fill in and teach lessons to the teens. The more I read about the Church and understood what REALLY happened, the more I realized that the church, which taught me so much about honest, was making it impossible for me to teach in Sunday School. I had to sift through the lessons and pick out what I could teach that was honest and would build the youth. I couldn’t always follow what “they” wanted to do so. It left me feeling quite sad that the truth is not all that important to our leaders, but rather keeping people faithful and committed to the organization. I asked for a release in December, since the lessons were not a way I could be “honest in my dealings with my fellow beings”
• In lessons in HP, I would point out the more liberal views, hoping to spark some true dialogue. I commented on overcoming the “us vs them” mentality, the importance of making marginalized members (i.e LGBTQ) welcome, etc. But it really felt fruitless. – people, at least in my area – are committed to towing the party line, even as they are kind and gentle doing so. They have been taught to obey the brethren and that is their lifeline to salvation.

If you can pull off hanging in there and making a change – that’s great and sorely needed. I tapered down to attending sacrament meeting and even stopped doing that at the end of January when I officially introduced myself to this group after being a lurker for some years. I am much happier now and am ready to make a difference elsewhere in God’s vineyard.

I guess what I am saying is that you can get beyond the flood of emotions over time if you let yourself. If you have extreme patience for change, it will probably come over decades. As for me, it’s simply not soon enough and unwelcome at best and I don't have the stamina or desire to keep encouraging it. Maybe you will and I wish you luck as you try to figure out your next steps.

[Bloodhound98]

Again I want to thank you for so eloquently pointing out your opinion and life experience. It's so much easier to accept and still respect the opinion when it's not angry.
I did actually talk to both my parents and brother about what my little family is going through. It was surprisingly open and fruitful. My mom was a little defensive at first and gave me the rethoric I'm sure many of you have had before. Slippery slope, you shouldn't be reading that stuff, ECT. She actually admonished me to read whatever I want but do it while still reading the BoM.
I told her all I clearly knew at this point was the Church was not the only true Church. She was sadden but eventually respected my view and even started questioning some things too.
I was calm, inquisitive about her beliefs, and not once angry. It was productive and I'm super encouraged by the proceedings.

[Newme]

Here's my point. You and I presume most of you/us know about the awful and untruthful things the Church has done. I get anger being part of the litany of emotions being felt in this forum. But anger doesn't help solve anything. My buddy went to all his friends and he just flat out was angry. His friends alienated him and want nothing to do with his Anti-Mormon bashing. Are they conditioned to say/feel that? Of course I and you all know that. But what progress did he make? All he did was shut off 9/10 of his friends and family.
Now I have gone about a much more constructive approach. I ask my Dad and siblings if they know about the origins of the Book of Abraham? Saying did you know Joey loved 14 year old girls and threatened other married women isn't exactly what any TBM wants to hear. I read a lot of bashing on this site and many more on others.
Again I said in previous posts I'm a fighter. I don't want to appethetically lay down and let my friends and family go about their naive lives. I would like to help them and I think if people weren't so angry when they talk about this stuff it could actually happen.
I fully admit that in one more month I might have a different tune. However for now I can't help but to not be angry and try to find solutions! This church has many many flaws but I can't see how we are any different than the rest of them. So why not change and evolve into something better?????

I admire your perspective, especially this early on in your faith crisis.
I imagine it helps a lot to have your wife somewhat supportive - try to keep her on board with you or else you may end up angry like some of us here.

The original goal of NOM was to find the middle way - to realize that we can't force others to join us in our shocking epiphanies about the church, yet we can't unsee what we've seen. The best way is the middle way - to take the best and leave the rest - of the church or anything really. That's actually what Joseph Smith taught - to seek truth wherever it's found and to study scriptures and only "take what portion belongs to you."

One way of seeing it, which I'm trying to focus on, is that of HOPE. Sometimes it may feel hopeless but it's often because it's like my heart is breaking so it can expand. "Old wine bottles" - old ways of doing things are thrown out to make room for new and better ways (gospel=good news, or being born again and again...). Positive disintegration is financially unhelpful to some, so it's not discussed a lot in psychology but it's essentially about how the ideal is that I keep realizing I was wrong or that life sucks in some way, in order to regroup and make it better. But often, the tendency is to either stay stuck or to pop pills, or join another group who makes me feel "right" when I was feeling wrong or other quick fixes that don't really help.

The hard times have been the strain of relationships - very hurtful. But the hope, or the positive aspects of my faith journey have been a new vision of who I am and what life is about, so I'm not as bogged down by unnecessary shame and anxiety or financial stress. To me, the his-story is not really important. The US founding fathers did some crazy things but I don't give up my citizenship because of it. To me, what is most important are the issues of the church that affect me and others now - like cognitive distortions and financial corruption. But there are still beautiful things about the church - mostly the sense of community - even if conditional - it's amazing! Take the best, leave the rest - that's what I keep telling myself and my kids.

[Corsair]

I think I live the church because of the good life I've had and can't deny it's involvement in my life. It taught me good principles on how to be a man (although some don't like gender roles). A mission fwd my development as a good member of society. If you read any self help books you can basically find core religious principals interwoven in their guidelines. Serve others, give money to charities, discipline, and other tactics trying to get one to not be selfish. That might be the biggest key to life right there...Just don't be selfish.
Point is despite the dogmas and magical history of the Church I grew up to be a pretty decent fellow. Because of that I am not angry that people don't live on the moon. I am not angry because I have been given a great life.
The question is would I have been afforded this same life without the church? Probably wouldn't served in the Philippines (maybe military) I was too dumb to get into any other colleges on the same level as BYU. Obviously I don't know and as I write this my mind is spinning on how maybe my life could've been better.
Perhaps these are just the last stages of grief that I am going through wanting to desperately believe I haven't​wasted 37 years if my life. I still can't bring mysterious admit that any of my time I. The Church was time wasted......But who knows

One of the distinct realizations of mortality is that you simply can't experience every possible life path, nor can you go back and change your previous decisions. I see that as a Stoic gift that the forward flow of time grants to all of us. We can't change the past and can't be held to some godlike requirement to do so.

Everyone must pass through the bleak valley of anger on their way out. You are trudging through right now concerned with wasted time and missed opportunities. I won't try to tell anyone how long they should stay in the valley of anger, but I can at least promise that your life will be full of far more joy once you can forgive the church for spiritual abuse and forgive yourself for believing it. Everyone's journey is going to be different, especially if the experience includes physical, emotional, or financial abuse. We must all be kind to those on the path no matter how slow or fast they walk.

The pain of a faith transition leaves you with a priceless gift. You have had the experience of being incredibly wrong about a significant aspect of your life and then you had the strength and will to change. Enjoy your mortality and use the incredible opportunity for a better life.

[MalcolmVillager]

Welcome BH98. This place saved my sanity, helped me process, and stopped me from doing stupid stuff when I found it a few years ago.

The beat advice is GO SLOW. Be gentle on yourself and your family. It is complicated and we don't get to choose the consequences to our reactions. There may be lies, cover ups, overreaching, and way too much in the truth cart but it isn't all bad.

Consider your family and other social consequences in your actions.

There is a great talk by Patrick Mason given at the FAIR conference last summer. I highly recommend it and his interviews on all the podcasts. I don't agree with his conclusions but his approach is helpful, especially to someone just starting out and for your family.his book Planted is pretty good for someone at your stage.

Don't recommend CES Letter to those who have not read the Essays at a minimum and Planted if possible.

Also, you should become familiar with the stages of grief. They will become a reality for several years!

[Newme]

I've been thinking about what is really best...
1) Keep my mouth shut while I see people I love hurt financially & psychologically by a cult-like church (peace at all costs)... or
2) Open my mouth and warn of harm - defend truth "wherever it's found" - and suffer the consequences (of being less popular).

I suppose there's an ideal balanced harmony - middle way. But it seems that if you prioritize truth at all, and you defend it, you will be unpopular. This is nothing new - Socrates, Jesus, William Tynsdale, Martin Luther King Jr... to name a few... stood up for truth and it got them killed - that's how unpopular they became. Socrates pointed out that there were worst things than death: "It is not difficult to avoid death, gentlemen of the jury, it is much more difficult to avoid wickedness, for it runs faster than death..."

Choosing the 2nd option involves a lot of pain - and subsequently temptation of regret and wondering if it's worth it. It can make you question the integrity of humanity - and see how common people kiss ass over doing what's right. Yet, it's not all-or-nothing - people - all of us - are a mix of strengths and weaknesses. There's a natural (even biological) tendency to zoom in & dwell on what's wrong, so ideally, there's active mental reprogramming to keep the negative in mind, while focusing on the positive.

Not easy - "a narrow way." Anger does serve a purpose, but it's so easily misused. As Aristotle said, "Anybody can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not within everybody's power and is not easy."

[moksha]

I want change and to be honest I want to stick around to see it happen. Does that make me naive? Am I hopeful or Hopeless???

It makes you a committed and effective individual. You are not fleeing the scene of a monumental multi-car accident. Sticking around and helping make things better is commendable.

If things are ever to get better in the Church, then the Church needs change agents.

[Corsair]

If things are ever to get better in the Church, then the Church needs change agents.

Neither LDS leadership nor most members will ever be happy with change agents, so don't do this hoping for validation. It is a rare believer that will validate your apostate concerns or your desire to make objectively helpful changes in LDS culture.

[moksha]

It is a rare believer that will validate your apostate concerns ...

Apostate concerns??? I don't have no stinking apostate concerns. I couldn't handle apostate concerns.

[Linked]

Welcome aboard Bloodhound98! It looks like I am late to the party, but it's good to have you here.

I am a couple months behind Kori in time on this board (and the old one where we used to live). In that time he has gone as far as voting opposed in ward conference, and I have removed my oil vial from my keychain. When I first joined I thought there were some angry people on here that may have taken things too far, beating up the church in all their posts, not seeing the other side of things, etc. As I've spent more time in the disbelief closet and felt more isolated and stared divorce in the face I've come to appreciate the need to get the pain and frustration off my chest here on NOM so I can do what it takes to stay married another day. I also still appreciate seeing the entirety of the situation though.

My recent posts could probably be included in the church bashing variety, though I am not so much concerned with the church history issues. There are things that are concerning that the church does today.

• In my opinion the dogmatic worldview espoused by the church is harmful; it causes people to learn to force facts to fit into their worldview, a skill which easily bleeds into other areas of life.
• Missions are hit and miss, I served mine for the whole 2 years and did my best, was fairly successful, but it broke me as a human which took years to get over.
• The manipulative tactics the church has evolved to use disgust me: - high pressure sales tactics for missionaries
• white-washing church history to make it more palatable
• pushing people to go on missions and marry quickly to keep them indoctrinated
• the cultural and semi-official push to cut off different believing family members
• using the carrot of the 2nd coming to get people in a frenzy for 187 years
• forcing people to make what they consider binding covenants at 8 years old and then at the temple in front of their entire family with no socially acceptable way to decline
• using the temple (and by extension eternal life and eternal families) as the enforcer in the racket that is tithing
• and many other things.

I don't have anyone to blame for these things, but I think they are wrong and they make me angry, and this is the place I can point them out and get a thoughtful response. Then when I am with my extended family who don't know of my disbelief I can try to tactfully and strategically challenge their worldview. And the jokes here can be pretty awesome.

[Bloodhound98]

Welcome aboard Bloodhound98! It looks like I am late to the party, but it's good to have you here.

I am a couple months behind Kori in time on this board (and the old one where we used to live). In that time he has gone as far as voting opposed in ward conference, and I have removed my oil vial from my keychain. When I first joined I thought there were some angry people on here that may have taken things too far, beating up the church in all their posts, not seeing the other side of things, etc. As I've spent more time in the disbelief closet and felt more isolated and stared divorce in the face I've come to appreciate the need to get the pain and frustration off my chest here on NOM so I can do what it takes to stay married another day. I also still appreciate seeing the entirety of the situation though.

My recent posts could probably be included in the church bashing variety, though I am not so much concerned with the church history issues. There are things that are concerning that the church does today.

• In my opinion the dogmatic worldview espoused by the church is harmful; it causes people to learn to force facts to fit into their worldview, a skill which easily bleeds into other areas of life.
• Missions are hit and miss, I served mine for the whole 2 years and did my best, was fairly successful, but it broke me as a human which took years to get over.
• The manipulative tactics the church has evolved to use disgust me: - high pressure sales tactics for missionaries
• white-washing church history to make it more palatable
• pushing people to go on missions and marry quickly to keep them indoctrinated
• the cultural and semi-official push to cut off different believing family members
• using the carrot of the 2nd coming to get people in a frenzy for 187 years
• forcing people to make what they consider binding covenants at 8 years old and then at the temple in front of their entire family with no socially acceptable way to decline
• using the temple (and by extension eternal life and eternal families) as the enforcer in the racket that is tithing
• and many other things.

I don't have anyone to blame for these things, but I think they are wrong and they make me angry, and this is the place I can point them out and get a thoughtful response. Then when I am with my extended family who don't know of my disbelief I can try to tactfully and strategically challenge their worldview. And the jokes here can be pretty awesome.

Yeah I think this was my first post. I didn't want to hear the anger and wanted to believe that I would never go through that. I don't bash the Church but I've learned a lot in my short time and I can now understand why people are angry.
I guess my only lesson is that people who question might get turned off quickly and whatever little window you might get to convince someone of the "truth" can be swept away with anger. But I completely understand the need to vent and get things off your chest that your family especially spouses might not agree with.
Very well said