Hope or Hopeless???

[Bloodhound98]

So without dishing out too much disrespect it seems like all of you or most of you just kind of bash the Church. This is very new to me (1month or so) so in a way I am still processing a lot of this information. Let me clarify by saying I have read A LOT as I am sure some of you have too. My buddy showed me the CES letter and I obsessively fact checked as much as I good. I was enlightened, frightened, sadden, and despite it all still hopeful.

For me I grew up about as Orthodox Mormon as one could. Church came before everything in our family's life. Church took precedence over School, Sports, and sadly family too. I served a mission and got sealed in the temple like the little road map told me I was supposed to. Granted I had some speed bumps along the way, but suffice it to say I did what I was supposed to. Along my way I realize now that I more or less worshipped Joseph Smith. He was my hero. I had resentment for my own father and I thought the world of Ole Joe. I knew Brother Brigham was a fool, despite my degree from his wonderful University, but I thought the world of Joseph.

Fast forward 1 month and my views of him are drastically different. I went from singing Praise to the Man, to "Wow! I'm glad God got didn't spare his life in Carthage." I couldn't believe some of the stuff we all know about. But I'm left with what now????

My current delusional thinking is maybe the BoM was really inspired, even if not the way I grew up thinking it was. Maybe Joseph got power and he abused it because he is human and God still gives even Prophets Free Agency. I actually think God could very well of let him die because he did have a plan that would not of been accomplished with him trying to marry everyone's wife and overthrowing the United States! Maybe God knew that Ole Bigot Brigham was gonna take the church through some kooky years but eventually his kingdom would be big enough that he could make some real progress? Or maybe I am still delusional in trying to hope for something that isn't going to happen?

My hope is that maybe one day the Church will be more forthcoming and perhaps more detailed in their confessions, I mean Church Essays. I have hope that my kids will know the truth about the church and perhaps still love it like I do. Well I know they will definitely know the truth at all costs, but maybe they will be able to see past it?

My buddy who shared the information with me says he's done being tricked and wants nothing to do with the church. Even though he still wears his garments, perhaps out of fear. Either way he is mad like many people who post stuff on these boards. I am not mad. I want change and to be honest I want to stick around to see it happen. Does that make me naive? Am I hopeful or Hopeless???

What say you?
Please if you are angry don't bother responding. I'm generally curious if these thoughts have crossed your collective minds or if you never got that deep? I am in a faith transition for sure but it doesn't involve leaving the church as of right now.

[LSOF]

We are well within our rights to bash the Mormon church. It has been, is now, and will for the foreseeable future be a major source of evil. The University of the Bearded Polygamist (and bloodthirsty, ravenous despot besides), Where Everyone Must Be Chaste and Clean-Shaven, Even Brigham Young University, which I attend, forces me to lie about my beliefs to get an education there. I am currently looking to transfer thence.

That said, in the initial stages of my apostasy, I entertained the idea that maybe Joe was a fallen prophet. But that's as far as my apologetic endeavours took me before I realized that the whole church is founded on a lie and an absurdity, no different from any other religion.

[Bloodhound98]

No different than any other church?????
Then why should I seek anything different??
If they are all the same then it's just preference, assuming I want religion I'm my family's life then by that logic it just doesn't matter.
Well said......You also seem angry

[Give It Time]

It's a process. I know it's not the most active forum on this board, but there are those of us who are exploring/trying a faithful approach that may or may not be compatible with the church's teachings. That's okay. Once the testimony falls, we are free to explore what resonates with each of us. For some, it's science. For some, it's philosophy. For some it's religion, including but not limited to the church. It's a pretty terrific thing to be able to do this. You'll find the most consistently friendly to the faithful view on the "Staying Faithful" forum.

[Bloodhound98]

Thanks I like that. Didn't know where to rely post, just wanted to

[Ghost]

Welcome to the site. Some advice that you might hear around here at times is that it's fine (and maybe even a good idea) to go slowly. You don't need to quickly make any decisions or changes in your life based on your shifting views, and when you do it can be on your own timetable.

Like you, I haven't found myself becoming angry as my views have changed. But I understand completely why some people get to that point, especially when matters of faith strain family relations.

When your first exposure to someone is a complaint about some particular aspect of Mormonism on a message board, it's easy to see him or her as simply an angry person. I find that hearing (or reading) someone's story helps me empathize.

[moksha]

Am I hopeful or Hopeless???

Sounds like you are both hopeful and in the process of recompiling your beliefs. Dr.Victor Frankl said some years ago that believers make for successful survivors. Wishing you success!

Rather than relying on the veracity of any story, I have found it useful to look to the kindness of individual members in determining the worthwhileness of our Church. We have many kind members. Where kindness exists, something good is going on.

[Give It Time]

Am I hopeful or Hopeless???

Sounds like you are both hopeful and in the process of recompiling your beliefs. Dr.Victor Frankl said some years ago that believers make for successful survivors. Wishing you success!

Rather than relying on the veracity of any story, I have found it useful to look to the kindness of individual members in determining the worthwhileness of our Church. We have many kind members. Where kindness exists, something good is going on.

This was really sweet.

I come from a domestic violence background. What was shocking to me to realize it's that gender roles, the obedience covenant, honoring the priesthood have a tendency to instill within a man with proclivities toward aggression and violence a sense of entitlement. That sense of entitlement is a major factor behind DV. On the other side, women are taught to let the men lead, that women need to stay silent. This not only grooms women for DV, but a woman learns passive-aggressive tactics and manipulation are the only reliable to get anything she wants/needs/get anything done.

You can imagine I have a hard time at church. However, people in the church do believe gender roles are of God and by telling them otherwise is to try to take something from them they value. They don't appreciate it. Yet, I don't like being told of the beauty of gender roles.

I realized something, this morning. Many of the people here feel the church has gulled them. They have come to the conclusion, through experience and research, that the way they allowed themselves to be gulled was by believing in unseen (spiritual) things. I happen to believe in the unseen. I've had many experiences that I don't think science explains, yet I get people trying to explain my experiences scientifically and I don't appreciate it. Just as the members don't appreciate my trying to tell them gender roles are toxic. On the reverse side, they see the spiritual as something that allows them to be gulled and they don't like my championing it, just as I don't like members championing gender roles.

That really was a eureka thing for me, this morning.

[Edited the autocorrect selections. I didn't have time before work.]

[CaptainSalty]

This is a great post! To get more conversation going I moved it to the support forum.

Welcome to NOM Bloodhound98! We hope you enjoy your time here and can find what works best for you.

[Mormorrisey]

Welcome to NOM. I think you'll find that reaction to the church and church-related topics ranges from the hopeless to the hopeful, from pure and unadulterated apathy to blinding rage. All this, I'm convinced, is fairly normal and helpful in processing one's changing beliefs. Your views are welcome here, as I've tried to make it work for many years, like you are trying to do. I've gone from apologetics, to grief, to rage, and finally to where I exactly want to be, just apathetic as I lessen my participation level. You might change your views, you might not. That's why NOM is the best ward in the world; efforts are made to understand.

[Bloodhound98]

I appreciate all the replies. Patience was never my strong suit. I'm very lucky to have a very open minded wife. She knows about my thoughts and muddled thinking. Her grandfather was a minister in a Non Denominational Church of Christ. I remember asking my super TBM brother-in-law what his Grandpa thought of Mormons. Mind you this man had 5 PhDs in Theology over the years. He no surprise didn't buy Ole Joe's Golden Bible story, but he actually​really liked the LDS Church. He said "If any religion helps man be kind to each other then I approve."
That has stuck with me and had led me to think that as long as the Church works for me today I'm okay with it. Don't know what will happen tomorrow or even next year. I will approach that bridge when I get there.

[20/20hind]

If your into podcasts you should listen to Mormon stories. Some of the podcasts contain very helpful info in going through this and the church. You have many things going for you. You have many choices on how you handle them. One of my main regrets when I was in the same place as you was that within 24 hours of finding out and verifying information about the church I knew I was a total none believer. I said things that I shouldn't have. I wrote a letter trying to explain my position. I wish I would have slowed down took a deep breath and thought things out before I acted. What I'm saying is go slow. You have the power, information,and most of all you have choices to make and they don't have to be made right now.

You are in a great spot right now. Don't mess it up by making rash decisions, or off the cuff remarks about what you have found out to people you care about. Good luck.

[Bloodhound98]

Wow 20/20hind that's great advice. I feel like my buddy who introduced/ruined/liberated my life did the same thing as you. He was done with the church and try to spread the word as fast as he can. Now his family is ashamed of him and his best friends from his mission just screen his calls. I was determined not to be like that so my mentality no matter what I read was not going to be like his.
I have listened to quite a few of the mormonstories podcasts. I am reading A Rough Rolling Stone (fantastic book btw) I read all the new church essays and I basically read anything and everything I can get my hands in for and against the church. I'm sort of addicted as my wife would say. So if you have any other good reads send them my way!

[MerrieMiss]

No different than any other church?????
Then why should I seek anything different?? If they are all the same then it's just preference, assuming I want religion I'm my family's life then by that logic it just doesn't matter.

If it’s no different from any other church, there’s no reason to seek anything different and there’s no reason to stay. Both choices are valid. I’m only Mormon because I was born one. It isn’t a community that has resonated with me. I’ve always felt like a square peg and it seems unfair, that if the LDS church is like all the others, that I’m stuck in it just from some accident of birth when another community or organization could speak to my soul. I was taught as a child that “church shopping” was bad. Now I think it may possibly be the best way to go about finding a spiritual community.

For what it’s worth, for several years I believed in some mixture of apologetics, universalism, that I could be a positive force for change. But again, if the church is like all others and it doesn’t make me happy, then why was am I there? For family, that’s why, and I think a lot of people here are in the same situation.

Well said......You also seem angry

And speaking to the anger – I can understand that some people are more or less angry than others. I like NOM because overall it is very moderate and kind. However, in learning more about the church many people go through the stages of grief, one of which is anger. I’ve experienced all stages of grief in one way or another in my journey. They don’t happen in one particular order, sometimes they happen at the same time, and sometimes I regress. I’m very rarely angry any more. Sometimes I’m sad, but as time moves on, I find I’m accepting more and more.

I hope you stick around and are not turned off by what may seem more negative to you than it is. There’s anger here, but there’s also a lot of encouragement and support as well. A lot of people here still attend their wards, hold callings and TRs. We’re the people in your ward you don’t know about. Very likely you know someone in real life who is closeted in unbelief. This is the place where many people come to get support when it doesn't feel safe to speak out in their own family or wards.

[redjay]

If you want to stick around at church, then stick around. It's your life and more than ever it's your interpretation of spirituality and mormonism - once you come to a realisation that the brethren might not be any more inspired than you are with regard to how you live then you are free to do as you please. Formerly it was their game and their rules - now if you decide to play it is your game and your rules. My own thoughts are that we will see change in the next 10 -15 years as a response to haemorrhaging members and with the existing Apostles dying out. But that's far too much of a long game for me. This is early days for you and there is no rush. You may feel though at some point that the whitewashed stories, empty mantras and superficiality of church s too much and head for the door. But that's your decision to make on your own terms in your own time.

[LostMormon]

I could be wrong, but from what I can tell, NOM doesn't really describe most people on here, at least not anymore. I can't find the original definition, but it was something along the lines of people that don't believe some or many of the doctrines of the church, but still attend for various reasons, be it family or social reasons, and still try and make it work. I think there are a lot of people here that are inactive or have left the church, and it sometimes comes across as a softer version of exmormon sites.

I don't particularly enjoy going to church, but I still attend every week, taking it slowly, and trying to figure out what exactly I am going to do in the future. You say you love the church, but in what way? the social aspects of it, the moral teachings? Have your beliefs changed enough that you will stop doing the things that are uniquely mormon, such as attending the temple, or paying tithing? or do you still believe these things are from god, and necessary to get to the celestial kingdom?

[Bloodhound98]

I think I live the church because of the good life I've had and can't deny it's involvement in my life. It taught me good principles on how to be a man (although some don't like gender roles). A mission fwd my development as a good member of society. If you read any self help books you can basically find core religious principals interwoven in their guidelines. Serve others, give money to charities, discipline, and other tactics trying to get one to not be selfish. That might be the biggest key to life right there...Just don't be selfish.
Point is despite the dogmas and magical history of the Church I grew up to be a pretty decent fellow. Because of that I am not angry that people don't live on the moon. I am not angry because I have been given a great life.
The question is would I have been afforded this same life without the church? Probably wouldn't served in the Philippines (maybe military) I was too dumb to get into any other colleges on the same level as BYU. Obviously I don't know and as I write this my mind is spinning on how maybe my life could've been better.
Perhaps these are just the last stages of grief that I am going through wanting to desperately believe I haven't​wasted 37 years if my life. I still can't bring mysterious admit that any of my time I. The Church was time wasted......But who knows

[alas]

I stayed active for many years after I quit believing, if I can say I ever did believe more than doubt. So, it might be more accurate to say I stayed active a long time after I quit hoping church was really what it claimed. My husband is TBM, but more liberal than most, but he was not always liberal enough to have accepted my non belief and stayed married. So, for a lot of years, I stayed active and in the closet about my nonbelief. Probably about 30. But, besides staying active for TBM DH, I also stayed active because he was active duty military and we moved some 20 times in the 20 years he was active duty. So, in moving to a new area, the instand social group was good. And I honestly believed there were good people in the church and that it was more good than harmful.

So, how can I fault someone who stays active because they see good people in the church and believe the church is basically good and good for people? I did exactly that for 30 years.

Now, I have come to the opinion that the church is good for some people, especially extroverted males. Very good for extroverted males like my husband. But it is not so good for highly introverted, feminist, intellectual and much more thinking than feely-feely, women. Did I mention *feminist* women as in the catagory of people the church is not good for?

So, yes, some people here are in an angry phase. If you are not angry, then ignore the people who are. It is their thing right now and doesn't have to be yours. But, don't be too surprised if you start to feel some anger, as it is a normal part of the grieving process. You have lost something dear to you, so there will be sadness, hope that maybe some of it can be salvaged, searching by reading everything you can get your hands on, and maybe some anger, then apathy, or even renewed interest with a different framework. Several stages come before you settle into the peaceful place you end up. Some people end up staying active, some go inactive, some resign membership, some join another church, some keep faith in God, some keep faith in a different kind of concept of God, and some become agnostic or atheist. All are fine with the people on this board, because some of us are in each of those spots.

And speaking of where you may end up, don't lock in where you are going to end up by something like promising the wife that you will NEVER go inactive, because where you actually end up may be different than where you think you will end up.

Me, I am considering becoming active again. My DH disapproves because he sees that I have been happier since going inactive, but things change and so I an considering going back.

[No Tof]

Welcome bloodhound 98

Sounds like your story is very similar to many who have been here a long time. Nice to hear it again though.

I have benefitted from the experience of others to help me see that I can make my own life better without a template from the church.

Along the way, anger, frustration, worry, apathy and perhaps finally peace are all valid feelings that accompany us on our way.

Definitely not hopeless BTW

Best of luck.

[Korihor]

Alright, I'll chime in.
My upbringing seems to very similar to your own. based on your intro, you seem to be where I was about 20 months ago.

I thought, so what if it's "not true" as I thought it was, it still has a lot of good parts. I wasn't angry at that point. It seems there is a high probability people will go through an angry phase at some point of their journey. But not all. Many on here are veterans of post TBM status and to a recent inductee, it can seem like anger or church bashing. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's just the cold hard truth.

I wanted to be the change from within, and still do to an extent. You should have hope to be the change you want to see. But it's virtually hopeless to think this will happen in any quick fashion. For me, I couldn't dedicate my life to beating against a brick wall. Eventually, progress will be made - it's just not my self-appointed calling.

Welcome. We're really glad you're here. This place needs new blood to rejuvenate things. Left to ourselves, it starts to become too similar to Reddit ExMo. If you can maintain a healthy lifestyle with non-traditional LDS beliefs and still remain happy in the Chruch culture, I applaud you and wish you the best. Just be true to yourself (and family) and screw what the rest think.