nom/AMA with John Hamer

[moksha]

They allow all those colors in church? I thought church black and white. Both doctrinally and physically.

I believe the main LDS Church defines the color of faith as beige.

[aerin]

If the AMA is still going on, and you feel up for it John, how do we (NOMs, former mormons) build community? What do you see as ways to build community (if there are ways outside of joining the CoC or another faith)?

Many former mormons struggle to find community after a faith transition. Seemingly simple community actions like finding a babysitter or finding help moving become difficult. A wise criticism of atheism currently is that atheists rarely combine to bring people casseroles when a loved one is sick.

Finally, many former mormons or NOMs evolve out of communities. This is normal and healthy, but makes long term former Mormon communities difficult (because the long term members move on with their lives and aren't as interested in Mormonism any longer). How can any of us make sure that mormons going through a faith transition have community and support?

[John Hamer]

If the AMA is still going on, and you feel up for it John, how do we (NOMs, former mormons) build community? What do you see as ways to build community (if there are ways outside of joining the CoC or another faith)?

I'm a huge believer in community-building and supporter of independent institutions that promote community. There are all sorts of communities; obviously there are virtual groups like this board or the blogging and podcasting communities, FB groups, etc. There are also more formal Mormon borderlands cultural institutions like Sunstone, which I've been a long-time supporter of and history groups like John Whitmer Historical Association and others.

One of the ways we've been engaging in building local community networks is through sites like Meetup.com that let you organize locally by interest. Another such network is couch-surfing. All of our traditional civic institutions in the developed world have been declining, but many still exist and have impressive legacies: there's everything from civic choirs and orchestras, to being a booster for local libraries and museums, local charities, local political and civic government institutions that require volunteers to function properly.

Most Mormons when active gave huge amounts of their time and resources to one particular institution. If, upon leaving it, you devote just a fraction of what you're previously given in time, I think you'll find that you can accomplish something quite meaningful, and build something that you actually have a stake in.

[Deepthinker]

Hi John! Wow, it’s great to have you here on NOM! I’ve learned so much from you just listening to your contributions on the IoT podcast.

I did have a few questions for you, if you’re still doing this. I need to give you a little background first. My brother, who is gay and living with his partner, stopped attending the LDS church years ago. We’ve talked together a great deal over the last few years about my abrupt faith transition and his slow fade from the LDS church. Recently he started listening to podcasts to try to unpack all the things that caused him mental and emotional trauma (he did go through some reparative therapy when he was trying to make things work with the church).

His partner is wonderful, but he is a nevermo and sometimes is frustrated that he can’t help my brother. During those times, he tells my brother to talk to me. While I can help him on some things, I don’t completely understand growing up a gay Mormon, since it is not my life experience.

First, what are some other materials (even outside of a podcast) that he could read or listen to that would help him? Second, what advice would you give him that I could pass on to him?

Also, I’ve been thinking of suggesting that he try going to a Community of Christ service. I’ve thought about it myself, but I’m not that close to one. My brother lives in the Los Angeles area (Ontario). What congregation would you recommend he attend?

[John Hamer]

First, what are some other materials (even outside of a podcast) that he could read or listen to that would help him? Second, what advice would you give him that I could pass on to him?

Also, I’ve been thinking of suggesting that he try going to a Community of Christ service. I’ve thought about it myself, but I’m not that close to one. My brother lives in the Los Angeles area (Ontario). What congregation would you recommend he attend?

Hi Deepthinker. Fortunately for your brother, it sounds like he has a good basis for a support network with both a wonderful partner and caring sibling. There are Mormon podcasts that focus on LGBT issues, for example "Gay Mormon Stories" which produced 92 episodes between April 2012 and November 2015.

One difference Gay Mormons often face that is different from other transitioning Mormons is that since the faith crisis is cause by the institution church's rejection and devaluation of them as an individual person, they may never have gone through the whole truth-claim/historical issues deconstruction that most post-Mormons go through. In which case, it's probably good to go through some of the regular (not LGBT-specific) Mormon borderlands materials like Mormons Stories and eventually IoT.

Regarding a Community of Christ congregation, the good news is that he's in an area where there are several. The reality is that each Community of Christ congregation is unique, so I don't really know what the congregation in Upland is like (this is the closest to Ontario, CA). I do know many people in the Anaheim congregation (23 miles away) which has had at least one older gay ExMormon couple attending and includes members who have had some training and awareness of issues facing transitioning Mormons.

If he is interested, I can also get in touch with the Mission Center leadership for southern California, who could meet personally to listen his particular story and offer whatever help they can in making local connections.

[MerrieMiss]

Thank you so much for your response regarding the hymns. I almost didn't ask since I felt like it wasn't "important," but I'm glad I did. I didn't expect such a deep and broad response. I also appreciate the lyrics you shared.

I particularly liked your statement "singing the theology," as it is analagous to the Michael Hick's article and answers my question so well:

Hymns flavor our worship. They also color our perception of orthodoxy. Again and again, the character of the hymns we sing asks us: What are the themes that shape our worship? What are the doctrines that, whatever their place in the scriptural canon, get distilled into memorable phrases and, through repetition, saturate our minds? In the case of the 1841 hymnbook, then, we may also ask: had Emma Smith left Nauvoo with the Twelve and resumed her place as the overseer of Mormon hymnody, how different might the character of Mormon worship now be?

It's really a fascinating thought. I like seeing the different direction the CoC has gone with the hymnal. Thanks again.

[alas]

I was not really following this thread because of my own stupid assumption that it would be about a lot of history and I am pretty much done with analyzing history. But wow, I should have been participating more. It has been facinating.

I absolutly love the hymns. But it sounds like a very different concept of God than the Brighamite branch. Which would be good. It sounds more like a traditional Christian concept of God rather than the anthropomorphic one of a physical male body of the Brighamites. I have a hard time with the Brighamite notion of an all male Godhead, with Boyd K Packer pounding the pulpit and shouting that "the Holy Ghost is Male, Male, Male!" So, how does the CoC define God? Standard Trinity, without body, passion, or parts, or what?

So, I am very interested in knowing more, and I need to find community, but I probably have a serious location problem. In the summer, I reside in an itty bitty town near (OK, not that close, but the nearest town that anyone has any concept of where is, or that has a grocery store) Montpelier, Idaho. The other direction, the nearest grocery store is Logan Utah. And in winter, I am in another itty bitty town near St George Ut. Could you give me information or tell me how to find information on CoC closest to me. What are the congregations like in such traditionally conservative areas, or do they even exist? Most people in both locations are extremely (as in nut case extremely) conservative, and as I am on the opposite end of the political spectrum, I have a bit of trouble finding friends or community.

[John Hamer]

I absolutly love the hymns. But it sounds like a very different concept of God than the Brighamite branch. Which would be good. It sounds more like a traditional Christian concept of God rather than the anthropomorphic one of a physical male body of the Brighamites. I have a hard time with the Brighamite notion of an all male Godhead, with Boyd K Packer pounding the pulpit and shouting that "the Holy Ghost is Male, Male, Male!" So, how does the CoC define God? Standard Trinity, without body, passion, or parts, or what?

So, I am very interested in knowing more, and I need to find community, but I probably have a serious location problem. In the summer, I reside in an itty bitty town near (OK, not that close, but the nearest town that anyone has any concept of where is, or that has a grocery store) Montpelier, Idaho. The other direction, the nearest grocery store is Logan Utah. And in winter, I am in another itty bitty town near St George Ut. Could you give me information or tell me how to find information on CoC closest to me. What are the congregations like in such traditionally conservative areas, or do they even exist? Most people in both locations are extremely (as in nut case extremely) conservative, and as I am on the opposite end of the political spectrum, I have a bit of trouble finding friends or community.

Hi, alas --- I missed this. I'm glad you enjoyed the hymns. As you see in the first of the hymns, there is a fairly open conception of the Divine in Community of Christ. I would say, God is not male or our literal father or a human-like fleshy being. The church's description of basic beliefs is trinitarian Christian, but we are non-creedal and there is a lot of variation of perspective, even within a small congregation like my own.

Regarding finding a Community of Christ congregation near you, I believe there is a "house church" primarily of ex-Mormons that meets occasionally in Logan and there's a congregation in Pocatello. Neither are very close, I'm sure. When you goto St. George you're a little bit better off. There's a regular RLDS congregation there that I think is a little conservative, but there's also an emerging house church of seekers who are primarily ExMormons. Both of those house churches would probably be worth checking out as you look around for community.

[ysidrow]

Fantastic IOT episodes on the Mormon Stories panel from Trevor's recording. Thanks for the additional commentary and inserts. You made the series far more nuanced and fair to how TBM's and faithful people in general deserve respect and consideration for their beliefs and actions. Mockery and ridicule can't bridge the chasm that we desperately need to cross.