nom/AMA with John Hamer

[John Hamer]

This is what church is like in Toronto.

March/April meetings of our History, Philosophy, & Theology Group:



Mar 14, Tues (7 pm): Maps of the Medieval Mind. “Here there be dragons” fills the void of the world unknown to Europeans in the so-called Dark Ages. We’ll explore and translate dozens of historic maps to chart the Medieval worldview.



Mar 21, Tues (7 pm): Pagan Vikings vs. the Christians. Beginning in the 8th century AD, pagan Norsemen plundered the monasteries of the Frankish and Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. How could Thor and Odin lose out to Jesus?



Mar 28, Tues (7 pm): The Bible’s Powerful Matriarchs. In the Age of the Patriarchs, it turns out that most of the Bible’s most powerful figures were women. How and why did these matriarchal narratives challenge the patriarchy?



Apr 11, Tues (7 pm): Easter: Comparing Resurrection Myths. Jesus Christ is hardly the only god in Antiquity who was said to return to the world of the living after death. We’ll compare these many ancient resurrection myths.



Apr 18, Tues (7 pm): The Crusades and Jihad. We’ll look at the original holy wars fought between Medieval Christianity and Islam. Can we draw lessons from these past conflicts for the 21st century world?



Apr 25, Tues (7 pm): Why Job Fails to Solve Evil. The authors of the Book of Job were troubled by the question: Why do the righteous suffer when the wicked prosper? We’ll consider and evaluate their proposed answers.

[LaMachina]

These look great! Do you ever head out west to Alberta? I've looked into the local CofC congregation here but haven't mustered up the motivation to actually attend a meeting yet.

I think I saw somewhere on here that you put these lessons/sermons online? Or were planning to? Do you have a link or website to check out? Thanks for your work!

[20/20hind]

John that is awesome! If I was close I would totally come.

The lessons in the lds church are just the worst for any intellectual discourse. I used to sit on the hard chairs in the gym for elders, and wish I was doing something else. My wish came true in 2011

[John Hamer]

These look great! Do you ever head out west to Alberta? I've looked into the local CofC congregation here but haven't mustered up the motivation to actually attend a meeting yet.

I think I saw somewhere on here that you put these lessons/sermons online? Or were planning to? Do you have a link or website to check out? Thanks for your work!

I do go out to Alberta. I was there last November and spoke at the Calgary and Lethbridge Community of Christ congregations. I should be out there again sometime this year.

Toronto congregation will have some online meetings beginning next month. I'll post details here as they become available.

[wtfluff]

Toronto congregation will have some online meetings beginning next month. I'll post details here as they become available.

I'm dead serious when I say: This is the only "religious" meeting I have any interest at all in attending at this point in my life.

So, yes John, please let us know when your online stuff is set up. And once it begins, please consider recording the meetings, and make them available to view whenever someone desires.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

These look great! Do you ever head out west to Alberta? I've looked into the local CofC congregation here but haven't mustered up the motivation to actually attend a meeting yet.

I think I saw somewhere on here that you put these lessons/sermons online? Or were planning to? Do you have a link or website to check out? Thanks for your work!

I do go out to Alberta. I was there last November and spoke at the Calgary and Lethbridge Community of Christ congregations. I should be out there again sometime this year.

Toronto congregation will have some online meetings beginning next month. I'll post details here as they become available.

I have a good feeling that your virtual congregation will be growing by several NOMs with this announcement.

[redjay]

My Sunday School for the foreseeable future: the world is bad, the world is unhappy -specially dem gays; be obedient, you're not yet good enough, but you're still better than the heathens and counterfeit religionists.

Anyway John, looks awesome, I'm jealous.

[John Hamer]

I'm dead serious when I say: This is the only "religious" meeting I have any interest at all in attending at this point in my life.

So, yes John, please let us know when your online stuff is set up. And once it begins, please consider recording the meetings, and make them available to view whenever someone desires.

I'm very glad to be the exception on your list. I'm excited for the online meetings because they're not simply going to be streaming; we want them to be interactive, so we'll be using Zoom which is kind of like Skype or WebEx but you have the option to have lots more people.

[John Hamer]

Anyway John, looks awesome, I'm jealous.

Thanks! I've definitely been enjoying the experience. We had a wonderful group and discussion last night on Norse paganism and Frankish and Anglo-Saxon Christianity. One of the best group discussions yet.


The History, Theology, and Philosophy Tuesday night discussion group at Community of Christ Toronto Congregation.

[Corsair]

John, I'm delightfully envious of the kind of community and church you have in Toronto. I will have to do my own home study on topics at your church.

[Mormorrisey]

I didn't have a "history" question, and I was sad as the seemingly only other Eastern Canadian on the board not to contribute to this AMA. But I do have a more "modern" question. It's always fascinating to me to see the difference in Alberta Mormons and those in the East; those in the west are generally more conservative than those out in the east. Does the same hold true for the CoC membership as well? I suspect it does, but it would be interesting hearing from you.

I also wish you well on your Sunstone weekend. I would have loved to go, I'm within driving distance, but that would be one of the final frontiers for the wife. She knows personally two members who "Satan led away" because they were intellectuals and read Sunstone, and it's a bit of a trigger for her. But I would have loved to go. Good luck with your weekend, it sounds like an absolute blast and a great location to have it.

[Korihor]

It's kinda surreal listening to a IoT podcast one night then seeing John here the next day. I'm blogging in the midst of podcast celebrity.
Anyway, John, big fan.

Listening to "mormon themed' podcasts, especially of the IoT variety, it's easy to be hyper critical of the LDS church. Frequently enough, you mention some subtle and no so subtle differences between LDS and CoC. I admit, I have frequently thought, if only the LDS could make some similar moves as did CoC, I might be able to stay.

That being said, no organization is perfect, and I'm sure CoC has it's issues just like anyone else. Without going into any details, do you think CoC has some big obstacles to tackle still (like LDS does) or is most of it in the past? Do you see CoC as continually open for improvement, or have they resettled in their ways and some cracks are starting to show?

I'm really not looking to dig up dirt on CoC. Moreso, I'm trying to get an idea how things are going for CoC since the 15-50 +\- years of their major reforms. Was the overhaul enough to carry through or is there still much to be done?

As it relates to the LDS church, I'm just wondering if they made all the changes that we clamour about here and other "open minded" forums, would it be enough? It seems CoC has made many/most of the changes we desire here.

[Korihor]

Anyway John, looks awesome, I'm jealous.

Thanks! I've definitely been enjoying the experience. We had a wonderful group and discussion last night on Norse paganism and Frankish and Anglo-Saxon Christianity. One of the best group discussions yet.


The History, Theology, and Philosophy Tuesday night discussion group at Community of Christ Toronto Congregation.

They allow all those colors in church? I thought church black and white. Both doctrinally and physically.

[MerrieMiss]

I have a question about the Community of Christ hymnal, although perhaps if I just did my own research I could answer it for myself. Last week I spent sacrament meeting reading “Emma Smith’s 1841 Hymnal” by Michael Hicks.

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/publicat ... mnbook.pdf

I was vaguely aware that there were multiple hymnals, but I had never given much thought as to what became of Emma Smith’s hymnal when Brigham Young assumed leadership. He didn’t keep it. Do you know the history of the CoC hymnal? Was it originally based on Emma Smith’s compilation? Did it retain Emma Smith’s compilation, and have new editions arisen out of that one? Or was a new one compiled by someone else? When was the first hymnal compiled? (I see that two were published, 1956 and 1981 – any others?) I’m curious to know.

[John Hamer]

I didn't have a "history" question, and I was sad as the seemingly only other Eastern Canadian on the board not to contribute to this AMA. But I do have a more "modern" question. It's always fascinating to me to see the difference in Alberta Mormons and those in the East; those in the west are generally more conservative than those out in the east. Does the same hold true for the CoC membership as well? I suspect it does, but it would be interesting hearing from you.

I also wish you well on your Sunstone weekend. I would have loved to go, I'm within driving distance, but that would be one of the final frontiers for the wife. She knows personally two members who "Satan led away" because they were intellectuals and read Sunstone, and it's a bit of a trigger for her. But I would have loved to go. Good luck with your weekend, it sounds like an absolute blast and a great location to have it.

I'm sorry that Sunstone happens to be a trigger for your wife, as I think the Toronto symposium is going to be pretty great. Also, unfortunately, it's difficult to locate NOM and other borderlands Mormons here in Eastern Canada, so it's sad to be missing you.

Regarding eastern vs. western members of Community of Christ. I have not found the westerners to be more conservative. However, I've only been to two congregations in Alberta: Calgary and Lethbridge. The Calgary congregation is quite similar to the Toronto congregation and it's actually working to follow Toronto congregation's model for reimagining what church is for people in the developed world in the 21st century.

We do have more conservative members all over the place, including some of the congregations up north here in Ontario.

[John Hamer]

That being said, no organization is perfect, and I'm sure CoC has it's issues just like anyone else. Without going into any details, do you think CoC has some big obstacles to tackle still (like LDS does) or is most of it in the past? Do you see CoC as continually open for improvement, or have they resettled in their ways and some cracks are starting to show?

I'm really not looking to dig up dirt on CoC. Moreso, I'm trying to get an idea how things are going for CoC since the 15-50 +\- years of their major reforms. Was the overhaul enough to carry through or is there still much to be done?

As it relates to the LDS church, I'm just wondering if they made all the changes that we clamour about here and other "open minded" forums, would it be enough? It seems CoC has made many/most of the changes we desire here.

I don't think reform is ever "over," since life and history are ongoing. I always say that the names "Restoration" and "Reorganization" were both overly optimistic and short-sighted in that we're never done Restoring or Reorganizing.

Doctrine & Covenants 162:2e reminds us:

The spirit of the Restoration is not locked in one moment of time, but is instead the call to every generation to witness to essential truths in its own language and form.

The only way anything has any meaning in our lives and time and place in history is by translating it to our context and reimagining and repurposing it within light of the new ideas, insights, and paradigms in which we find ourselves.

There are lots of places where Community of Christ still lags behind its stated ideals, some of which are extremely unfortunate, and there is enormous work to do to move individuals, congregations, and the denomination forward.

[John Hamer]

I was vaguely aware that there were multiple hymnals, but I had never given much thought as to what became of Emma Smith’s hymnal when Brigham Young assumed leadership. He didn’t keep it. Do you know the history of the CoC hymnal? Was it originally based on Emma Smith’s compilation? Did it retain Emma Smith’s compilation, and have new editions arisen out of that one? Or was a new one compiled by someone else? When was the first hymnal compiled? (I see that two were published, 1956 and 1981 – any others?) I’m curious to know.

Emma produced four hymnals for the church, two during the early church period (1835 and 1841) , two after the Reorganization (1861 and 1864). Prior to Joseph Smith's death the apostles made their own hymnal in Great Britain that competed with the authorized hymnal Emma compiled at church headquarters in Nauvoo. When the apostles led their followers to Utah, the Utah LDS Church based its hymnal tradition not on Emma's Nauvoo hymnal, but on the apostles' British hymnal.

Emma based her 1861 and 1864 hymnals on her earlier work, so the Community of Christ and LDS hymn traditions diverge prior to the actual schism. In the meantime, however, the Reorganization has been much more active in creating new hymns than our Utah cousins. Many of Emma's children and grandchildren were poets and hymn writers including Joseph III and David Hyrum Smith. Our new hymnal, Community of Christ Sings (2013), is among the best resources we have in the church. It allows us to sing our theology on every page, it generally has eliminated patriarchal language in speaking about God, it includes hymns in 28 languages written by people around the world.

[John Hamer]

A consequence of our continuing to create new hymns and hymnals means that there is very little overlap between the LDS and Community of Christ hymnals in terms of hymns from the early church period. These are:

* The Spirit of God
* Redeemer of Israel
* We Thank You, O God, for Our Prophets

In addition we share several non-Restoration-specific hymns that come from the regular Protestant tradition:

* A Mighty Fortress Is Our God
* All Creatures of Our God and King
* All Glory, Laud, and Honor
* For All the Saints
* For the Beauty of the Earth
* God Be with You Till We Meet Again
* How Firm a Foundation
* I Know that My Redeemer Lives
* I Need The Every Hour

I think that's the entire overlap, not counting Christmas songs, and even here the words are usually not the same and the tunes are often a little or completely different.

[John Hamer]

On the topic of hymns, here are some examples of what I mean when I say the new Community of Christ Sings hymnal let's us sing our theology:

CCS #9 Who Is God

Who is God—young or old?
near or far? she or he?
All of these and none at all,
loving all, loving me.

God is young, God is old,
God is she, God is he,
mother’s kiss and father’s hug,
loving all, loving me.

CCS #342 Too Often, God, Your Name Is Used:

Too often, God, your name is used
to sanction hate and fear
so love and justice are refused
to people you hold dear.
O never let us use your name
to harm or hurt or kill
or consecrate a vicious aim
as your almighty will.

But move through us in deeds that spell
your name as Love and Light,
for faithful actions far excel
beliefs that we recite.
Let naming you through how we live
become our public creed:
the clearest witness we can give
is meeting human need.

And keep us ready to receive
the good that others do,
that helps expand what we believe
and why we trust in you.
For where deep love and justice meet
we see anew your face
and for a moment glimpse complete
the world transformed by grace.

That vision opens wide the church
to look beyond its walls,
to honor all who ask and search
for where your Spirit calls.
Their questions and their wondering
help us more fully claim
our mission as an offering
that glorifies your name.

CCS 285 For Everyone Born:

For everyone born, a place at the table,
for everyone born, clean water and bread,
a shelter, a space, a safe place for growing,
for everyone born, a star overhead.

For woman and man, a place at the table,
revising the roles, deciding the share,
with wisdom and grace dividing the power,
for woman and man, a system that’s fair.

For young and for old, a place at the table,
a voice to be heard, a part in the song,
the hands of a child in hands that are wrinkled,
for young and for old, the right to belong.

For just and unjust, a place at the table,
abuser, abused, with need to forgive,
in anger, in hurt, a mindset of mercy,
for just and unjust, a new way to live.

For everyone born, a place at the table,
to live without fear, and simply to be,
to work, to speak out, to witness and worship,
for everyone born, the right to be free.

CHORUS And God will delight
when we are creators of justice
and joy, compassion and peace:
yes, God will delight
when we are creators of justice,
justice and joy.

[MoPag]

Wow! Those are beautiful hymns.