Mormon and Gay

[Korihor]

Looks like we got some updates today

mormonandgay.lds.org

They even put out a new essay (sort of)

https://www.lds.org/topics/same-sex-attraction?lang=eng

Apparently it's totally cool to be gay, think gay and feel gay - but don't ever physically act gay. I can't imagine why anyone gay would stay in this organization.

[vankimber]

Oh, and don't ever say "gay", because you don't ever want to put a "label" on yourself. It's good to know that "full tithe payer", "convert", "temple recommend holder" and the like will no longer be used in the interest of eliminating labels. Especially since at this moment I could be labeled "fed-up, hypocrisy-hating, tooth-grinding, ready-to-kick-someone's-butt Mama dragon."

[GoodBoy]

Hit the front page of CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/25/living/mo ... index.html

One of the biggest changes was the dropping of the 's'. It used to read "Mormons and Gays". Now it is "Mormon and Gay". I think it is an acknowledgement that there are indeed (Elder Bednar... I'm looking at you) gay members of the church.

I like the basic message, love them and don't reject them. I'm grateful for baby-steps.

[Corsair]

This website makes the usual Mormon error of not demonstrating why the LDS church is so verifiably, absolutely compelling that someone who is gay (sorry, experiencing "Same Sex Attraction") would want to stick with it.

[achilles]

Now in fairness, I want to point a couple of things out.

The webpage now appears as a bona fide part of the Church's website, in contrast to the previous one. This lends it some legitimacy in the eyes of members of the Church who refused to accept it as a "real' Mormon site.

The tone of the message is vastly improved over the message about homosexuals even ten years ago:

1. An admission that it involves emotional, physical, and sexual attraction (not just perverse lust)
2. A strikingly candid statement that attractions lie on a spectrum (from flaming gay, to bisexual, to staunchly hetero)
3. An important clarification that "Identifying as gay, lesbian, or bisexual or experiencing same-sex attraction is not a sin and does not prohibit one from participating in the Church, holding callings, or attending the temple."
4. An admission that it is both "complex" and a "reality"
5. A call for kindness, compassion, support, charity, and empathy

Now to the problematic part of the message. The Church expects gays and lesbians to remain single and celibate. I actually agree with a Law of Chastity that calls for celibacy before marriage and monogamy after. I just don't agree that gays and lesbians should not be allowed to marry. Lifetime singleness and celibacy is emotionally crippling. I know this personally, and the scars run deep. No one should be alone. Yet it is demanded of LGBT members if they want even a scrap of dignity and belonging. And zero support is offered for this.

If they do not remain celibate, we may withhold approval and shun them at will. We may deny their children even the most basic rites of community membership (not even a name and blessing, for crying out loud!). And we may summarily judge them as apostate, and cast them out of the community. Let he who is with sin cast as many stones as possible at the reprobate LGBTs.

This approach must be rethought. Or even thought about in the first place. We are not asking for sexual carte blanche--just the opportunity to fall in love, marry, and have the families that the Church teaches is the ultimate facet of mortal existence. If the Church cannot see the cruel irony of this, well...it is more morally defunct than I thought.

[Mormorrisey]

My question is, according to Elder Bednar, there are no homosexual members of the church. If that's the case, why do we even need a website that talks about this non-existent phenomenon? What's the point if we don't want to label anybody? I feel about this website as I felt about the "diversity videos" they just released. The rhetoric is truly wonderful, and I'm actually sincere about that; the problem is that these beliefs are not even close to being put into practice, and there is a legacy of non-diversity that the church needs to apologize for, not build itself up about. Once they acknowledge that the legacy is painful and deep, and has caused much hardship in not only the LGBT community but for women, minorities, aboriginal and other communities, then to me a more productive dialogue can begin. But not until then. Until then, we'll get whitewashed videos and lovely websites that mask the troubling views underneath.

And an edit as I post - just read achilles' viewpoint as I previewed this, and he says how I feel much better. But I spent the time ranting, and now need to share it. So here it is.

[Red Ryder]

Let's not forget the amount of social pressure and scrutiny facing the church since the November policy.

That's what's driving the modest change.

[Korihor]

Let's not forget the amount of social pressure and scrutiny facing the church since the November policy.

That's what's driving the modest change.

My opinion is that this is just political lip service to defend BYU. When TSCC is accused of bigotry and hate and other terrible things at BYU, they can just point to this and say "No no no, you've got it wrong. We love gay people and welcome them"

They are no doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. Someone is holding a legal gun to their heads and forcing them to write.

[Red Ryder]

Oaks is driving the bus.

Here's the letter released today. Cross posting from Reddit.

https://www.docdroid.net/rOhCl52/guidan ... s.pdf.html

[EternityIsNow]

Now to the problematic part of the message. The Church expects gays and lesbians to remain single and celibate. I actually agree with a Law of Chastity that calls for celibacy before marriage and monogamy after. I just don't agree that gays and lesbians should not be allowed to marry. Lifetime singleness and celibacy is emotionally crippling. I know this personally, and the scars run deep. No one should be alone. Yet it is demanded of LGBT members if they want even a scrap of dignity and belonging. And zero support is offered for this.

Good point, and in fact, in the 1992 Encyclopedia of Mormonism, the church agreed:

Celibacy
See this page in the original 1992 publication.
Author: Inouye, Dillon K.
Celibacy, the deliberate renunciation of marriage, is foreign to LDS life. Like other forms of ascetic withdrawal, it may deprive the participant of crucial life experiences. Spiritual maturity and exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom require marriage (D&C 131:2-3).

The norm of Latter-day Saint teaching and practice is for individuals to marry, procreate, and foster righteous living in their families as indicated in the scriptures: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Gen. 1:28). "Marriage is honourable in all" (Heb. 13:4). "Whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man" (D&C 49:15). Those who are unable to marry in a temple in mortality through no fault of their own will receive compensatory blessings later (D&C 137:5-8).

The practice of celibacy was not widespread among the Christian clergy until centuries after the death of the apostles. "Forbidding to marry" was, for Paul, a sign of apostasy (1 Tim. 4:3). Because ancient and modern revelation endorses marriage and because most religious leaders in the Old and New Testaments were married, Latter-day Saints reject attempts to interpret the Bible as advocating celibacy.


Bibliography
Lea, Henry C. History of Sacerdotal Celibacy in the Christian Church, 4th ed. London, 1932.
DILLON K. INOUYE

I know TBMs and the church leaders would interpret this today as saying that the marriage talked about in this passage was between a man and woman only. But celibacy is celibacy, and that is what the church now supports, which is certainly no better for an LGBT member that for a Hetero member.

[wtfluff]

My question is, according to Elder Bednar, ....<snip.

First, let me re-phrase your question...

[vankimber]

In the CNN article, Ezra Alma M is quoted as saying that we can be nice to people who don't keep the commandments. Um, doesn't that description fit every person? Part of my problem with the website is that it fosters that kind of "love the sinner" attitude. There is an implied separation that often leads to smugness and "holier than thou" thinking. I would like for every church member to be required to live for a time in the way that is demanded of gay Mormons, just so they can get a taste of what it is they are preaching and believing. Being in good standing in the church comes at the expense of a gay person's very identity. That's an awful price to pay.

[FindingTruth]

The timing of this release just makes me more angry. I thought Deep down members of the church would show kindness and love to those that are LGBT, ESPECIALLY if it was family.

My wife just had a nephew that came out last Friday, who is currently attending BYU. He seems like he wants to make Gay + Mormon work and he has my sympathies for trying to take that road.

I have watched his posts and I see those that like and support his posts and positions which seem to align with the church's message but I count just 6-7 of the 50+ family members I know that can even be bothered to hit a damn like or love button on Facebook. Maybe they are in shock to think there are actually gay mormons, sorry Bednar, they do exist.

It will take some will power to not throw this message back at family that can't even show love for someone who has taken this step.

[LatterDayDeist]

Being Gay and Mormon is utterly unreconcilable. This is an completely insincere effort to deflect criticism against the church for its discriminatory principles. At the end the church tries to present this persona of "Oh, we are nice and we love everybody and accept everyone" but really they are ready to plunge a spiritual sword into any non-complaints back at a moment's notice.

[Not Buying It]

So the Church makes a halfhearted, unsatisfactory attempt to undo just a minuscule portion of the damage it has caused, without admitting any of the blame for having caused it. This isn't baby steps in the right direction, its having painted yourself into a corner and still not realizing what you should do to get out of it.

[fetchface]

OK so God hates gay sex yet he consciously decides to create people who are exclusively attracted to their own sex. Then he tells them to just skip the whole love thing for their whole life and live alone but be thankful for your trials!

God sounds like kind of a jerk.

[Korihor]

I wonder if the timing of releasing this website coincides with there being a lot of other news stories and the church hoped this would get buried a little bit? 2 weeks before the election, all 4 major sports underway on a Tuesday morning?

Supposedly the major document leak on Reddit is waiting for the elections to be over to gain exposure while TSCC looks to minimize it.

Come on COB - No press conference for this? Are you going to issue a memo to be read across the pulpit?

[Red Ryder]

Long gone are the days when homosexual mormon patriarchs were "exiled" to Hawaii.

http://www.connellodonovan.com/smith.html

[Mayan Elephant]

I agree with other posters that this is a public patch for BYU and other entities within the two corporations.

It is undoubtedly worse for gay youth, it deepens the 'obedience to church first' message. But it allows a lot of breathing or wiggle room for corporations, public figures and lobbying.

Nice post, Achilles.

[Mormorrisey]

Combined with achilles' great post, is this little reaction gem from Gina Colvin about the new website, and both are spot on how I feel about it, they just say it better. I think Gina's the one person I'd love to sit down with and just shoot the crap for a day.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon ... n-and-gay/