Dilemma

[Anon70]

TR expires soon. Still attending. Don't believe. Like some of the cultural aspects. Enjoy my callings because I focus on humanist topics. I don't do anything I don't want to including full attendance or tithing. But....I need my TR for reasons I'd rather not go into right now . Spouse is TBM that doesn't study, research or think too deeply about any of it-just "feels true".

So. Do I lie? Or do I tell the truth and risk losing relationships/callings and potential impacts to spouse and kids that are still in? Those that have been here, what did you do?

[Culper Jr.]

I'm in a very similar situation. I answer the questions with the same nuance and mental gymnastics that the Church uses when it presents its history and doctrine. For example:

Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

Yup.... if they ever actually prophesy anything, I'll totally support it. Not holding my breath, but hey, you never know. Also "sustain" does not mean "blindly follow". What constitutes a full tithe payer is a subject of debate. WoW is debatable. My testimony of the restoration? My testimony is that it was largely BS, but hey, it's a testimony... maybe not the one they mean. From what I understand, leaders are instructed not to ask for details or follow ups, so I just answer yes or no and add no other information. So far it hasn't been an issue of leaders grilling me or anything; if they did there would only be so much hedging I could do. But so far, I've been fine.

I've listened to a lot of NOM's advice here and taken it slow with my wife and other family. It has been good advice. I value my relationship with my wife and family more than I value being honest with a church that has continually lied to and manipulated me. I envy those couples that leave together, but my situation is what it is, so I have to deal with it the best I can.

[Anon70]

Yup.... if they ever actually prophesy anything, I'll totally support it. Not holding my breath, but hey, you never know. Also "sustain" does not mean "blindly follow". What constitutes a full tithe payer is a subject of debate. WoW is debatable. My testimony of the restoration? My testimony is that it was largely BS, but hey, it's a testimony... maybe not the one they mean. From what I understand, leaders are instructed not to ask for details or follow ups, so I just answer yes or no and add no other information. So far it hasn't been an issue of leaders grilling me or anything; if they did there would only be so much hedging I could do. But so far, I've been fine.

I've listened to a lot of NOM's advice here and taken it slow with my wife and other family. It has been good advice. I value my relationship with my wife and family more than I value being honest with a church that has continually lied to and manipulated me. I envy those couples that leave together, but my situation is what it is, so I have to deal with it the best I can.

Ok I laughed but really appreciated the nuanced approach.

And yes I feel lucky too that I was able to learn from others here and be careful and slow and gentle with my newfound knowledge and disbelief.

[Rebel]

I too have wrestled with this for about three years now and take the same approach as previously described in that yes I have a testimony even if I think it is BS I drink coffee but Coffee is never mentioned in the WOW etc etc And yes if Pres. Monson ever had a revelation I would support it , you get the idea . Too me even though I would leave the church in a minute if she was willing I have to walk the fine line and if that means ( as I would like to join Cof Christ) just getting the daily devotionals on line from Cof Christ and having faith in my own personal beliefs then so be it as I love my family and will be here and ready when they some day come to their senses !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mormorrisey]

A nuanced approach can go well, or it won't. This is the ultimate leadership roulette. The last interview I had, I just made up my mind to be honest. That sure, they have priesthood keys, but what does that really mean? Do I have to support stupid LGBT policies and shopping malls? Maybe if they actually reveal stuff I can support? The poor guy had no clue how to deal with it, or the SP counsellor. But as long as I paid my corporate dues and largely keep quiet, they'll give me one. Maybe they won't next time. Who knows.

I don't know how others feel, but there are many reasons I keep a TR. Namely, YSA aged kids who might get married, and I ain't going to miss their weddings, and other reasons too. Like Culper Jr, my relationships are more important to me right now than going off in an interview.

[Anon70]

A nuanced approach can go well, or it won't. This is the ultimate leadership roulette. The last interview I had, I just made up my mind to be honest. That sure, they have priesthood keys, but what does that really mean? Do I have to support stupid LGBT policies and shopping malls? Maybe if they actually reveal stuff I can support? The poor guy had no clue how to deal with it, or the SP counsellor. But as long as I paid my corporate dues and largely keep quiet, they'll give me one. Maybe they won't next time. Who knows.

I don't know how others feel, but there are many reasons I keep a TR. Namely, YSA aged kids who might get married, and I ain't going to miss their weddings, and other reasons too. Like Culper Jr, my relationships are more important to me right now than going off in an interview.

I've said for a long time that you can answer all of the answers right but say no to tithing and not get a recommend. And you've just proven me right-albeit in reverse. This makes me sad.

Follow up question-do you pay 10% on gross/net?

[Mormorrisey]

Follow up question-do you pay 10% on gross/net?

Let me answer this way, still nuanced. If I were ever to be asked in an interview, I would quote the 1970 first presidency letter on tithing, that it meant income. Full stop, no questions asked. I would just say I pay 10% on my income. That's it, move on to the next question.

When I was a full blown TBM, of course I paid on gross, because I wanted gross blessings. That was before the mall, and luxury apartment buildings, and housing developments. But even when I was the guy asking the question, this was not something I delved into too much; it was a yes or no question, I never looked at financial sheets to see if people were "lying" (which I recently found out from another bishop, he pours over the records to "catch tithing cheats," what's up with that?) and just took people at their word. Hopefully your interviewers will do the same.

Hope that helps!

[Anon70]

Follow up question-do you pay 10% on gross/net?

Let me answer this way, still nuanced. If I were ever to be asked in an interview, I would quote the 1970 first presidency letter on tithing, that it meant income. Full stop, no questions asked. I would just say I pay 10% on my income. That's it, move on to the next question.

When I was a full blown TBM, of course I paid on gross, because I wanted gross blessings. That was before the mall, and luxury apartment buildings, and housing developments. But even when I was the guy asking the question, this was not something I delved into too much; it was a yes or no question, I never looked at financial sheets to see if people were "lying" (which I recently found out from another bishop, he pours over the records to "catch tithing cheats," what's up with that?) and just took people at their word. Hopefully your interviewers will do the same.

Hope that helps!

Very helpful. We moved to the "tithe on your increase" method two years ago...kind of. Spouse wants to me pay a little more than that but it's half of what we used to pay and we did less year two than year one so I feel we're making progress. Very helpful, thanks!!

[DPRoberts]

On the staylds.com forums a person known as wayfarer (he also used to be a regular on the old NOM) did detailed posts about each of the TR questions. I find some of his approaches to be very much like Mormon apologetics, but maybe turnabout is fair play when family harmony and unity is at stake (pardon the speculation) .

[Hagoth]

This is where leadership roulette really comes into play. My recommend has expired but Mrs. Hagoth really wants me to renew. She is fully aware of my level of disaffection but likes to have me help with her family names from time to time. Both my bishop and SP know my genie is out of the bottle. Last time I told them I cannot in good conscience answer yes to the questions about prophets and restoration I was advised to replace the words "faith and testimony" with hope. I said "sure, I can always hope fore such things." I also have been careful to point out to them that the questions I'm answering aren't necessarily the ones they think they're asking.

If you think your leaders are the kind that are more interested in keeping people out of the temple than helping them get in, you should always do what's best for your marriage, not what's best for your Bishop's ego.

Also, when I had a cool bishop but a less cool SP I would tell the bishop that, since I had passed his Inquisition I was just going to give simple Yes/No answers to the SP.

Hope that helps.

[alas]

I used to answer with almost honesty. More like I left some things out than lied. About the restoration, I honestly said that I think JS restored some important teachings that the Catholic Church changed, so, yes and no. No, because I have a problem with Joseph Smith over poligamy and don't see how he could be a prophet with bringing poligamy into the 19th century. I just don't understand because if poligamy is of God, then God hates his daughters. Funny, but in twenty years or so, not one bishop was willing to go there. They were not going to try to Answer THAT question, so they just sort of nodded like, "who doesn't have a problem with poligamy?" And moved on quickly. After all, the question is more about proper authority, and does not require a testimony of JS. They forgot to notice that I said nothing about thinking JS restored priesthood authority, and really the question is about priesthood authority being restored. About the prophet, I said, very truthfully that I believe he can receive revelation for the church and then added that I also believe that the Pope can get revelation for HIS church and the PotUS can get revelation for the country, and that as bishop, he could get revelation for his ward. Not one ever objected to the fact that I was actually saying that I don't think the President of our church is much different than the head of the Great and Abominable or the corrupt Democrat in the White House. I had said that I think the prophet can get revelation and that was good enough. I also sustain the GAs as the designated leaders of the church, just the same way that I would sustain any designated boss, president, whatever, of any organization that I belong to.

The behavior questions I could answer that I was doing all the Mormon things.

In a lot of ways they are looking for orthopraxy, not orthodoxy. It is more about are you obedient than really how you think. They made it clear they didn't want to know too much about how I think. So, I think it is really more about, "Do you obey the WoW? Do you pay tithing? Do you obey temple covenants?" And I could answer all of those.

Or.....maybe I just scared them with the way I think.

And while I was writing I noticed that Hagoth answered. He mentioned that the bishop would clarify that if he can "hope" that it is true then that is enough of a testimony. I had that exact same kind of question and said that yes, I could hope. Now, I could not honestly say that I hope, because now I am glad that the church is not what it claims to be, because if the church were what it claims, then God is a jerk.

[Give It Time]

I just answer the questions yes or no without going into detail. That's the way they're phrased. That's what I've always done and will continue to do. I keep my spiritual asanas to myself. Like alas said, they don't really seem to want to know how you think, just that you're jumping through hoops.

[MalcolmVillager]

Dan Wotherspoon and Bill Reel have both done podcasts about the TR conundrum and how to work through it with nuanced thinking. I went from Gross to less than net (long story you can find on another post) but pay directly to the church so that local cannot see it. I have another year on my recommend and I am not sure if I can do another. It is a "game time decision " that will depend on my wife and my mood.

[No Tof]

Letting the temple "go" was a liberating step for me. But if you need the card I liked the Bill Reel podcast on how to deal with the interview.

If I wasn't so old and technically challenged I'd put the link up.

[Raylan Givens]

The TR interview I had, the Bishop knew my story. He was okay giving me one, "I just told him I was at about an 1/8 tank on many of the questions." I will be honest, he was at a 1/4 on the BOM.

I just said yes to the SP, since the Bishop seemed okay with it. I didn't really know my SP, none of his business kind of thoughts.

I am now out of gas and pushing the car.

My really kind BP asked a month ago if I wanted one. I turned it down. My DW would actually be mad if I came home with one. She would see it as blatant dishonesty.

How the tides turns in just a few short years.

[sparky]

I just went through this myself yesterday. I have no desire to go to any temple myself, but for social reasons I feel for the time being that having a recommend is better than not.

As others have said, the questions are phrased as yes/no, and leaders are instructed NOT to ask follow up questions. Ultimately, your religious beliefs or nonbeliefs are your business and yours alone, and you have the freedom to share or hold back from anyone for any reason you see fit. For me personally, I think my bishop is a decent guy doing his best with what he believes, but he's not my friend, I barely know the guy and I don't think I could ever have a productive religious conversation with him because our worldviews are too different. Same with the guy in the stake presidency. You can rationalize the questions so you can give the "right" answers however you want, but in the end it comes down to the final question, something like "Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the temple?" Do I consider myself "worthy" to sit inside a fancy building and support family/friends while they perform rituals that I don't believe in but are meaningful and powerful to them? Hell yes.

I sat in the chair and said yes or no as needed. I have the piece of paper now and I'm free to work things out for myself for another two years without people making false judgements of my character just because I didn't have a club card.

[Corsair]

The nuanced approach works for many although balanced out by leadership roulette. I hold a current recommend and I won't sugar coat it for this forum with any excuses about nuance. It's nine "Yes" and five "No" questions and I have yet to see an LDS leader that can see through my prevarication. I keep my recommend for family and really do not care about authenticity from the point of view of the church. My LDS membership is not known at my office although I do know several LDS people there. It's a waste of time to explain my coffee drinking to them.

[deacon blues]

When I think about temple recommends I am reminded of Luke 18. The parable of the Pharisee and the publican right from Jesus's lips puts things into perspective.

[MerrieMiss]

I have a current TR and for the past two interviews I have used the nuanced approach. I use the very same mental gymnastics the church uses. I haven’t even gone to the temple in four years. The TR is just something I have to make life easier in the event that I need it.

In my mind I answer the questions they should have asked:“Yes, I believe Joseph said he restored god’s true church.” “Yes, I recognize the leaders of the church/corporation and their respective titles.” Honestly, if the church wants me to believe that the witnesses saw with their “spiritual eyes” then they can accept that I believe the church is restored with my NOM eyes. Simple.

The thing is, when I was TBM it never crossed my mind to discuss in any kind of way how I believed. “Yes, I keep the WoW and I even go to bed early! But I drank a caffeinated root beer last week. What do you think of that?” When it comes right down to it, Mormons believe all sorts of things in different ways, but only the most vocal and orthodox talk about it much. I've known mormons who refuse to drink a Pepsi, some who keep a bottle of wine for cooking, and one who drank champagne when she was in France because when in France do as the Frenchmen do. When I was TBM I never questioned whether the bishop and I agreed on what a prophet, seer, and revelator is, and I see no reason to have the conversation now. The way I look at it, the person doing the interview expects it to be yes and no and out of there. Maybe some chit-chat. But no in depth discussion of what anything means. Except for one time in college, I have never been asked further questions.

If I need any kind of justification in my mind that I am okay for a TR, it is this: I don’t do anything Joseph Smith didn’t do, and in some cases, I don’t do a whole lot of things that he did do. If I’m following The Prophet (Smith) and am at least as good as him, then I’m good enough for the temple that he made up in the first place.

In the end I think it comes down to this: Do you think you’re worthy? I think I am, so I go to the interview, answer the questions the way I need to, get my TR and have no guilt about it at all.

I will say this – I get the impression that my husband is curious as to how I maintain a TR since I don’t wear garments. But he’s never come right out and asked, so until he does, I’m not talking about it. My underwear, my business.

[Culper Jr.]

Honestly, if the church wants me to believe that the witnesses saw with their “spiritual eyes” then they can accept that I believe the church is restored with my NOM eyes.

^^^ Ha! I love this!