Round 2 Beginning

[Linked]

Round 1 of opening up to my family (parents, brothers, sisters) went pretty well for both sides. I told them I don't believe, they asked a few questions, we all expressed our love for each other and desire to remain close in spite of our differences in belief. They showed some empathy and tried a bit to understand where I was coming from, which was about as much as I could hope for.

Now it's moving to round 2. Everyone has had a chance to internalize and ponder on the situation. Some have reached out to have a discussion to try to get a better feel for where I am or to express love and concern. They seem to be worried that I may be anti-mormon, I've been told quotes about the elect being hardened against the church a couple times. I am finding it difficult to find a good way to respond that is honest, open, and still respectful. At this point I still go in and out of being angry; I imagine I will be stuck here until I can reach some sort of steady state resolution with my wife which may never happen. So angry makes me seem anti to them. But I have real reasons for being angry and frustrated! But to them, having those reasons makes me anti. Maybe focusing on the specific reasons would help.

They also are worried I will go off the deep end and ruin my life without the LDS framework for my life. My brother can't understand how someone could be a good person without a fixed source of good. I want to reply that the church doesn't actually provide that, but it seems combative, but it's true. My mom wrote, "I just fear for the things that can happen to you without the basis of the church in your life. And I think this because there are so many people who leave the church who go through awful things. I just hope you don't have to experience that. But, if you do, I will be there with open arms and food!!!!!" I understand this concern. I have this concern. I am nervously excited to be setting my own rules for a happy life. She seems to be coming from a place of love within her TBM worldview, which is awesome. I want to refute these concerns with examples of billions of happy non-mormon people, but I fear that will be hurtful, and honestly I don't know many non-mormons. Maybe if instead of refuting I just try to allay their concerns instead.

I am considering writing up my new beliefs, as far as they have been developed, and sending them out so they have a point of reference. I find our discussions are a bit unfair in my favor because I know all their beliefs, but mine are less clear. I think my beliefs will stand up just fine in discussion, and maybe they will be able to help me refine them to be better. I think at least a few of them will be capable of having non-preachy discussions which would be good for both of us. This would also hopefully help them see what I now consider the "deep end" and how it aligns or doesn't align with theirs, which will help them worry less, or at least worry accurately. My family is not particularly manipulative to this point, so I am not too concerned with them attacking me strategically based on information I give them.

[2bizE]

I have not moved nearly as far forward as you have, but one thing I have told a few people is I am not anti-mormon. I am simply seeking truth, wherever it may be. It is rough sometimes to peel back the layers of tradition, philosophies of men mingled with scripture (i.e. PH Ban on blacks).

[TestimonyLost]

I'm possibly on the cusp of such a step myself, so I'm curious how you approached it to get a positive initial reaction. If you don't mind sharing, that is!

As for writing out all your beliefs, I've considered the same but I've wondered how productive it would be to blast that out to everyone unsolicited. Some may see it as an attack since it's very difficult to express beliefs contrary to the church's way without sounding like you're on the offense. Maybe you could write it all out and keep in reserve in case you do connect with some who want to discuss with you more deeply. It gives you the chance to ease into it. Or maybe even keep it just for yourself and use it as a way to collect and organize your thoughts.

Good luck!

[Linked]

I'm possibly on the cusp of such a step myself, so I'm curious how you approached it to get a positive initial reaction. If you don't mind sharing, that is!

As for writing out all your beliefs, I've considered the same but I've wondered how productive it would be to blast that out to everyone unsolicited. Some may see it as an attack since it's very difficult to express beliefs contrary to the church's way without sounding like you're on the offense. Maybe you could write it all out and keep in reserve in case you do connect with some who want to discuss with you more deeply. It gives you the chance to ease into it. Or maybe even keep it just for yourself and use it as a way to collect and organize your thoughts.

Good luck!

I described how I told them in this post, but the short version is I was a little too obvious in a discussion about how the church treats gays, and my sister asked if I believe in the church and I responded honestly. This was followed the next day by phone calls to the 2 siblings who weren't there where I just told them what happened so they wouldn't be left out of the loop.

I think my brothers and one of my sisters would appreciate a write up. Maybe I will just have it ready for those who want to know. I just feel bad for them when we talk and they seem to get frustrated when one thing I say seemingly contradicts something else I said, but it all makes sense if you can see the full picture in my head. I really feel like they want to understand me, and I am very open, the lack of boundaries in the church suits me.

[Linked]

I have not moved nearly as far forward as you have, but one thing I have told a few people is I am not anti-mormon. I am simply seeking truth, wherever it may be. It is rough sometimes to peel back the layers of tradition, philosophies of men mingled with scripture (i.e. PH Ban on blacks).

I like that. It describes me pretty well too. I realized I think it's more likely that the mormon view is not true, so now I am trying to figure things out as best I can from there.

[Red Ryder]

I've been following the DAMU for over 12 years now. Here's a simple summary of everything I've read and the best advice I've heard over that time.

Mormons (your family) will never understand you and will always think you've lost your way. They won't see things your way no matter what you say, write, speak, or do. They will always feel sorry for you and think you really aren't happy regardless of your true emotions, feelings, and new beliefs. "He's not really happy!"

The best advice I've read is to move on from the church and live like it never existed or bothered you. Live the best possible life and know you have the skills, abilities, and good fortune to have a well meaning life regardless of the church. No matter what happens from this point forward, it's not a result of you giving up your belief in the church. Don't question it, ever.

Mormons (your family) will always think you're the crazy one for leaving. The rest of the world and planet will know better.

I'll add a quick paragraph of my belief system.

My new beliefs are a mosaic of beauty wrapped within a wide open world view where boundaries, rules, and organization have been replaced with love, understanding, and curiosity to explore anything I want within the space in my head. I can choose to take what's new over old, left over right, and anything in between. I choose to determine my own eternal destiny and find love in a higher power if I wish. I reserve the right to change my mind anytime, for any reason, and for the pure sense of freedom that brings. I hold no hostages, grudges, or judgement against anyone who doesn't see things my way. Peace, love, and harmony will always be welcome over argument, admonishment, and anger.

[trophywife26.2]

RR: nailed it

[TestimonyLost]

I described how I told them in this post, but the short version is I was a little too obvious in a discussion about how the church treats gays, and my sister asked if I believe in the church and I responded honestly. This was followed the next day by phone calls to the 2 siblings who weren't there where I just told them what happened so they wouldn't be left out of the loop.

Doh! I should have looked at your post history. I actually read your story when you posted it.

I think my brothers and one of my sisters would appreciate a write up. Maybe I will just have it ready for those who want to know. I just feel bad for them when we talk and they seem to get frustrated when one thing I say seemingly contradicts something else I said, but it all makes sense if you can see the full picture in my head. I really feel like they want to understand me, and I am very open, the lack of boundaries in the church suits me.

In talking to my wife, I've found that really blunt language is the best approach in making my point clear. If I couch anything in less-than-certain language, she pounces on it and points out that I'm not really sure. Almost every conversation we've had, she says something along the lines of, "I think you have more faith than you realize." It's condescending but I also think it comes from a place of hope so I try to just let it go (not always successful).

[Linked]

I've been following the DAMU for over 12 years now. Here's a simple summary of everything I've read and the best advice I've heard over that time.

Mormons (your family) will never understand you and will always think you've lost your way. They won't see things your way no matter what you say, write, speak, or do. They will always feel sorry for you and think you really aren't happy regardless of your true emotions, feelings, and new beliefs. "He's not really happy!"

The best advice I've read is to move on from the church and live like it never existed or bothered you. Live the best possible life and know you have the skills, abilities, and good fortune to have a well meaning life regardless of the church. No matter what happens from this point forward, it's not a result of you giving up your belief in the church. Don't question it, ever.

Mormons (your family) will always think you're the crazy one for leaving. The rest of the world and planet will know better.

I'll add a quick paragraph of my belief system.

My new beliefs are a mosaic of beauty wrapped within a wide open world view where boundaries, rules, and organization have been replaced with love, understanding, and curiosity to explore anything I want within the space in my head. I can choose to take what's new over old, left over right, and anything in between. I choose to determine my own eternal destiny and find love in a higher power if I wish. I reserve the right to change my mind anytime, for any reason, and for the pure sense of freedom that brings. I hold no hostages, grudges, or judgement against anyone who doesn't see things my way. Peace, love, and harmony will always be welcome over argument, admonishment, and anger.

Thanks for the advice. Ultimately what you wrote about moving on is my goal, but I am not there yet, and with a TBM wife I may never get there. You know how it is. Your beliefs resonate, I feel quite similar. Especially the part where you said:

I reserve the right to change my mind anytime, for any reason, and for the pure sense of freedom that brings.

I recognize that my family will think I am crazy. I think they are crazy, but while I think they are crazy I can see the logic they hold, and I think they will be able to see the logic of my beliefs even if they don't buy it.

Also, if we are to have some semblance of the relationship we have had up to this point I think I need to be open with them about who I am and let them know exactly how and what sort of sane/crazy I am. I'm not holding my breath that one of them will be persuaded, or that they will stop thinking I am crazy, but I think that by being open I can salvage some of the openness that has been a hallmark of the relationships in my family. I hope that they will be able to tell me that I'm not really happy and that they will not take offense when I tell them their un-changing basis for morality actually changes all the time. They can call me the apostate and I can call them the zealots. And then we will play board games.

[Red Ryder]

Also, if we are to have some semblance of the relationship we have had up to this point I think I need to be open with them about who I am and let them know exactly how and what sort of sane/crazy I am. I'm not holding my breath that one of them will be persuaded, or that they will stop thinking I am crazy, but I think that by being open I can salvage some of the openness that has been a hallmark of the relationships in my family.

I totally understand your intent and think it's worthy of the emotional energy it will take to get there. I do think this is possible in families that are open, accepting, and show high levels of unconditional love regardless of (insert typical family problems here). Obviously we don't know your family or the intricate details of your pre/post disaffection relationship with them. Most mormon parents/family don't fall in line with unconditional acceptance. If they did, we wouldn't be here on NOM, right?

The irony in all of this is that mormon disaffection creates one big game of tug-o-war.

[Emower]

Most mormon parents/family don't fall in line with unconditional acceptance. If they did, we wouldn't be here on NOM, right?

Great point!

I also would advise against an email publication of your views. For the people I know, that has never gone very well. I think its because that is viewed as an aggressive way of pushing your views. I am in the middle of round 3 right now, where everyone is coming to grips with the fact that I am not crazy and I make valid points. the Cog Diss is thick all around. I have let people approach me first. I began to engage with family members until I experienced the retreat into testimony, then I backed off. It has worked ok til now. But it will never go good if they view you as on the offensive, because frankly thats what they expect and it will validate them if it happens. I think what RR suggests is the best course of action. Just go live life. Live a good one and be happy! Thats what we are all after anyway right? Easier said than done though with the various family situations that people have, but it is worth every effort I believe.

I will say that I still engage my wife on a regular basis. We have a good enough relationship that I can do this. It is very important to me to be understood by her, thus I will try my hardest to explain my issues to her.

[Hagoth]

Oh man, I HATE the "very elect shall be deceived" doctrine. It implies that anyone who ever bought into the Joseph Smith story is immediately elevated to the highest degree of humanity and that they have all the much farther to fall if they have second thoughts about gold plates and magic rocks.

Maybe we should consider that the very elect are the people at the top of a global organization that commands and controls millions of people. Maybe those people are deceived when they allow people to worship them as prophets of God and apostles of Jesus Christ when they know damn well that they don't have any more claim on those titles than the guy who scrubs their toilets. Actually less, because he probably doesn't think of himself as the very elect!

So where does the "very elect" concept come from? It's in Mark and Luke and it's a warning about false prophets: Mark 13: 23-24 "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets.

So watch out for false prophets, folks!