BYU Prof: People who leave Church deficient in "character"

[Not Buying It]

I can't believe no one else has commented on this Deseret News article "Religion professors address 'why people are staying' in the LDS Church at BYU Women's Conference". Here's the link http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... rence.html.

This is the inflammatory quote:

Gardner, bringing the focus back to conversion, announced her conclusion: “Why they stay, or why they leave, is not based on circumstance. It’s based on character. It’s based on the individual. It’s based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ.”

I know what I think about this quote, what about the rest of you?

[redjay]

Anecdotal, subjective and therefore not credible (so the Professor part is window dressing)

Also sanctimonious and self-serving.

One-sided: it can take a great deal of resolve and personal integrity (character) to leave mormonism behind.

Implies that Mormonism is key to religious experience, whereas religious experience is profoundly felt elsewhere also - this seems to be lost on most LDS.

What a crock.

[fh451]

Yeah, I saw that the other day and it's just another repetition of the church narrative: if you ever have a conflict with the church, the problem is you, not the church. Insulting to many of us, but not surprising.

fh451

[Deepthinker]

I can't believe no one else has commented on this Deseret News article "Religion professors address 'why people are staying' in the LDS Church at BYU Women's Conference". Here's the link http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... rence.html.

This is the inflammatory quote:

Gardner, bringing the focus back to conversion, announced her conclusion: “Why they stay, or why they leave, is not based on circumstance. It’s based on character. It’s based on the individual. It’s based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ.”

I know what I think about this quote, what about the rest of you?

I think it just shows the author's true character.

[Silver Girl]

This quote is circular. The phrase, "Be obedient to the teachings" doesn't examine the integrity of the teachings. It removes us from having our own moral codes. It can also be used to criticize the "character" of those who didn't follow the teachings of Hitler, or the teachings of Warren Jeffs, or the teachings of any other corrupt cult leader.

[Rob4Hope]

I can't believe no one else has commented on this Deseret News article "Religion professors address 'why people are staying' in the LDS Church at BYU Women's Conference". Here's the link http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... rence.html.

This is the inflammatory quote:

Gardner, bringing the focus back to conversion, announced her conclusion: “Why they stay, or why they leave, is not based on circumstance. It’s based on character. It’s based on the individual. It’s based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ.”

I know what I think about this quote, what about the rest of you?

I love the elephant in the room these guys always have. The line between what the Church teaches and what "the Gospel of Jesus Christ" is non-existent. MANY PEOPLE believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but don't think the church teaches it or practices it in its purity,...so leave the church.

Duh.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is NOT taught exclusively (or even taught for that matter) by the church...yet this is implicitly stated in the quote.

Typical. Its a deception.

[wtfluff]

Gardner, bringing the focus back to conversion, announced her conclusion: “Why they stay, or why they leave, is not based on circumstance. It’s based on character. It’s based on the individual. It’s based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ.”

What does "character" and obedience "to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ" have to do with a GIANT real-estate corporation, masquerading as a "church"?

[MoPag]

I can't believe no one else has commented on this Deseret News article "Religion professors address 'why people are staying' in the LDS Church at BYU Women's Conference". Here's the link http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... rence.html.

This is the inflammatory quote:

Gardner, bringing the focus back to conversion, announced her conclusion: “Why they stay, or why they leave, is not based on circumstance. It’s based on character. It’s based on the individual. It’s based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ.”

I know what I think about this quote, what about the rest of you?

I think it just shows the author's true character.

AMEN Brother Deepthinker!!! Some of the douchiest TBMs I've ever met were religion professors.

[Korihor]

This quote made the rounds on Mormon Stories Podcast Community on Fbook.

[Corsair]

Gardner, bringing the focus back to conversion, announced her conclusion: “Why they stay, or why they leave, is not based on circumstance. It’s based on character. It’s based on the individual. It’s based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ.”

I know what I think about this quote, what about the rest of you?

Professors Barbara Morgan Gardner is also throwing the two billion Christians under the bus along with apostates. Joining a mainstream Christian church is not the most common path out of the LDS church. But it is a very valid path and it is directly "based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ." It's just not based on a version of Jesus Christ that forbids coffee or threatens church leaders that fail to marry teenagers and other men's wives.

Gardner knew that she was talking to fervent LDS believers. Equating obedience to Jesus Christ strictly with LDS adherence would be insulting if she was speaking with Protestants, Evangelicals, and Catholics. But she knows she won't be publicly challenged on this point since it is a rare event for anyone to speak well of non-Mormon Christians in any LDS church service.

[Not Buying It]

I think we can expect more of this kind of talk. As it becomes more publicly obvious that more people are leaving the Church (see this article about Millennials leaving churches, even - gasp - the LDS Church: http://kutv.com/news/local/losing-their ... ing-church), the remaining believers are faced with a choice - either acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons a person might leave the Church, or double down and demonize anyone who leaves. However, the former option leads them to question the legitimacy of their own involvement in the Church, so the latter option becomes the preferred approach. This tendency will be even more pronounced in the leadership, who instinctively sense that acknowledging that there are legitimate reasons to leave the Church threatens their own power, as well as the organization they have devoted their whole lives to.

My prophecy - and it is just as good as any President Monson has ever given - is that as more and more members become aware of the legitimate reasons for leaving, members in general and the leadership in particular will become more insistent that those who leave the Church are lacking in character and misled by Satan. True believing members will have to retreat ever farther into their Mormon fantasy world to maintain that illusion, however.

That's my take on it.

[Anon70]

My prophecy - and it is just as good as any President Monson has ever given - is that as more and more members become aware of the legitimate reasons for leaving, members in general and the leadership in particular will become more insistent that those who leave the Church are lacking in character and misled by Satan. True believing members will have to retreat ever farther into their Mormon fantasy world to maintain that illusion, however.

That's my take on it.

I think this will be true for many. But....I have been amazed at the "exodus" in the last few years. For me, in the last 3 years, it seems that people are leaving at not just large numbers but also very vocally saying WHY. And we hear about people every day here and other places on the Internet and in real life people that are leaving. I think the people you refer to above will end up being a minority and end up going too far into the "persecuted" model like other fundamentalist religions. But maybe that's just wishful thinking. No prophecy here

[achilles]

I can't believe no one else has commented on this Deseret News article "Religion professors address 'why people are staying' in the LDS Church at BYU Women's Conference". Here's the link http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... rence.html.

This is the inflammatory quote:

Gardner, bringing the focus back to conversion, announced her conclusion: “Why they stay, or why they leave, is not based on circumstance. It’s based on character. It’s based on the individual. It’s based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ.”

I know what I think about this quote, what about the rest of you?

I actually knew Gardner (back when she was Barbara Morgan), and she is a sweet person. I have a very hard time imagining her being judgmental. If those are her actual words, I can't imagine she uttered them with condescension or judgement. I'm glad to hear she is working with the college kids. I think they probably have a great experience with her.

[Red Ryder]

I can't hold her responsible for the rhetoric.

She's employed by the church. She's merely one of the thousands of finger puppets doing the dirty work of the brethren. The brethren sit comfortably behind closed doors and yes men gate keepers and skirt all responsibility for church failures.

People are leaving because the church and it's leaders are institutionally dishonest.

People who leave the church become self induced deficient of church required character. So do people who leave cults, gangs, and Utah Jazz fans.

[20/20hind]

That quote is so Mormon. Everything is about obedience. Mormons eat it up like funeral potatoes. For a Christian church they really don't talk about Christ at all. They prefer to quote general authorities. I still attend SM with my wife and kids and it's been a whole month of nothing about Jesus teachings. It's all pray,pay, and obey.

It's really mind numbing.

[Linked]

This is the inflammatory quote:

Gardner, bringing the focus back to conversion, announced her conclusion: “Why they stay, or why they leave, is not based on circumstance. It’s based on character. It’s based on the individual. It’s based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ.”

I know what I think about this quote, what about the rest of you?

For anyone who has gone from agreeing to disagreeing with the statement "The Church is True." this kind of rhetoric is insulting. It insults my reasons for coming to my conclusion that the Church is probably not True. It personally insults my character. It insults the efforts and sacrifices I made to be a good mormon. It insults the efforts of anyone striving to do and be good if they aren't doing it the way and with the attitude the LDS church specifies.

For those who agree that the Church is True this is a nice pat on the back for having better character and making greater sacrifice for Jesus than those who don't. "Way to go guys, you are special!"

This quote is an attitude that I fear TBMs close to me will adopt. If my family acts like my character, reasoning, and efforts are inferior to theirs I will not be able to spend much time with them.

[Vlad the Emailer]

this kind of rhetoric is insulting

Yes, and so much so!

You are correct, and just as is referred to earlier in this thread, it is extremely insulting to non LDS Christians. My mother is an exMormon Christian. I've never met anyone more Christian, and in fact she frets greatly about the status of my agnostic soul, yet she not only rejects the LDS "gospel", she insists that it is anything BUT the gospel of Christ.

To me this is just another apologetic tactic. The article is about leaving the Mormon church, but all claims and points are made substituting Christ for the church. Thinking people will recognize the difference immediately and easily dismiss the article on that basis alone. TBM's, on the other hand, will be pleased to be reminded that (in the Mormon world view, at least) the two concepts can (and should) be referred to interchangeably.

[sc89]

Gardner, bringing the focus back to conversion, announced her conclusion: “Why they stay, or why they leave, is not based on circumstance. It’s based on character. It’s based on the individual. It’s based on the price they’ve paid to come to know and come to understand and come to be obedient to the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ.”

I know what I think about this quote, what about the rest of you?

I, personally, examined the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ and determined that I had to leave the church. It was absolutely a matter of character. That was probably not what she meant though...

[Grace2Daisy]

I saw it, and my thought about people such as this reminds me very much of a gyroscope, always spinning around at a frantic pace, but not really going anywhere.

My personal belief in Christ has actually grown since walking away. I would state it takes strong character to walk away from an lying and ultimately abusive relationship. Quite honestly people such as this appear to be so dense light bends around them.

[MerrieMiss]

The one benefit from watching Leah Remini's documentary with my husband was that we discussed the immense amount of integrity and character it takes for people to leave something they no longer believe in. We didn't talk about Truth (because the church is True!), but we did discuss the fact that these people signed a contract and then they walked away from it. We talked about the difficulty of leaving family, friends, all you've ever known, your identity, your social structure, the regret for decisions you made under false information, moving forward after recognizing the sunk costs of participation - and how difficult it would be. It helps that I have a parent who is a convert and relationships with their family have always been strained - it's the other side of the same situation. My husband has witnessed this from the first day he met my grandparents who said we were brainwashed and my other parent was going to hell for doing this to us.

I'm hoping that he remembers all of that when we have the big discussion. Saying that people who leave lack character only reinforces to believers that they are the good guys. It's circling the wagons. It completely lacks empathy. What's sad to me is how many "friends" I have who went to that BYU women's whatever it was. If they really knew me, I'm sure they wouldn't be my "friends" any more.