No One Ever Asks

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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MerrieMiss
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No One Ever Asks

Post by MerrieMiss » Wed May 17, 2017 4:24 pm

A common theme in faith transitions seems to be that no one ever asks the person experiencing the transition why or what’s going on. I’ve been thinking on this for a long while, in part inspired by Misbehaved Woman’s post about VT.

I haven’t been completely open with my husband with my disaffection, but I’ve been very open with the fact that I have strong issues/problems with the church. He has never asked me about it. We listened to a podcast together where someone read a letter from a woman who resigned from the church – I was hoping (nervously) my husband would ask me how I felt about that. He did not. We moved to a new ward and I have spent the last two Sundays crying during church. He has never asked why. I mentioned at one point I didn’t know what kind of Mormon I wanted to be in this new ward because I have problems with church doctrine. He didn’t ask about it.

Now, I understand that I can’t be that woman who expects her man to read her mind. However, when listening to a podcast and discuss it, it’s telling that this is the part of the podcast that gets ignored. When someone’s crying her eyes out in the church parking lot, it’s normal to ask, “What’s wrong?” When someone says they have problems with church doctrine, isn’t it normal to ask, “Like what?”

I want to have a discussion about these things, but if I bring it up all the time then it seems like I am pushing an agenda: “Here, let me tell you how the church is wrong!” I’ve given so many opportunities to have these discussions in small ways, but no one ever asks. (Specifically my husband, but no one else – friends, family, VT - ever does either.) I bring things up from time to time in a rather benign way, but again, it's always me bringing up the issues.

It's frustrating, because it feels like this puts the responsibility of the faith transition on me. If I keep my mouth shut, everything will be fine. It's a "Don't ask, Don't tell" solution and it's killing me inside.

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achilles
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by achilles » Wed May 17, 2017 5:43 pm

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is a useful approach for folks who aren't yet ready to deal with the grittiness of reality. The realization of this grittiness will probably always be a lonely road because of this fact. I'm sorry. :(
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Wed May 17, 2017 6:50 pm

I really empathize with your feelings of hurt and isolation... knowing that people see you in pain and don't ask about what's troubling you. I can't know about your relationship with your husband, but it's a pretty safe bet that folks at church are mainly scared. I think back and while I didn't acknowledge it to myself at the time, on some level I knew I was very precariously balanced, testimony wise, and the doubters and non-believers represented a real danger. In that respect, they can't afford to ask you what's wrong -- they might go off the cliff with you.

There was a thread recently on what board members have found to replace the scriptures... I have found a lot of solace and connection in reading the last couple of years. It's important to find these kinds of resources for yourself. And while you're at it, don't forget about us Nommies! People here get it, and we care, and we're open 24/7. :)
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Hagoth
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 17, 2017 7:54 pm

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 6:50 pm
...doubters and non-believers represented a real danger. In that respect, they can't afford to ask you what's wrong -- they might go off the cliff with you.
Absolutely. There is only one acceptable narrative presented by the church, which is that if you obey the rules and keep your shoulder to the wheel your testimony will get stronger and stronger. Members are given no tools for dealing with a different scenario except to recognize that something seems terribly wrong and adopt one of two possible responses: run away as fast as you can or to insert head in sand and pretend that everything is fine.

I'm sorry that your husband can't meet you halfway on this, Merriemiss. He's probably scared sh*tless because the church embeds itself so deeply into our marriages that sometimes we can't figure out exactly who it is that we're really married to. I imagine that he will eventually ask some questions if you keep giving him opportunities.

One more thought. If I see my wife crying for no obvious reason I immediately assume that it's because of something stupid that I've done. Is there any chance that he's thinking jumping to the wrong conclusion about something?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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oliver_denom
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by oliver_denom » Thu May 18, 2017 3:41 am

It's cognitive dissonance working things out. There's this unwritten belief that Mormonism is the greatest thing on the whole planet Earth. It's so amazing that nonmembers envy what we have and that people can become converted just by having a Book of Mormon in their home, it's that powerful. It's such a wonderful thing that it's the fastest growing in the world, and it's biggest problem is keeping up with all the growth. That's why it's so important to bear testimony, invite people to church, go on missions, and spread the word, because it would be selfish not to share such a wonderful thing. It's because it's the greatest thing ever, the thing that literally keeps your family together, and is the source of all happiness, that members sacrifice so much and endure so much misery. Why would they do all this stuff if it wasn't great? Therefore it must be great...because of all the stuff they do.

So how do inactive members fit into this narrative? How about believing members who stop believing? They don't fit. Not at all. If people are beating down the door to get in the church, then why are people who are already here, people who must know how great it is, trying to leave? The first line of defense is to blame the person leaving. They must have sinned or have a character flaw. But what if that person is your spouse, someone you love? That can't be. It can't be that the person we love and choose to spend our lives with is so deeply flawed. It would mean we are deeply flawed. It would mean that reality isn't what we thought it was, that this person isn't who we thought. All that we know would unmake itself.

So it's a double whammy. The dissonance of a believer leaving the greatest thing in the world, and the dissonance of being unable to attribute the leaving to character flaws, which would resolve the initial dissonance if you could.

So what to do? If you can't untangle the deep contradictions and emotions, then it's best to use the time honored Mormon tradition of ignore, suppress, be passive aggressive, and explode. Rinse and repeat.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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Mormorrisey
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu May 18, 2017 4:10 am

Great comments here, and I can only offer anecdotal evidence that what oliver and Hagoth said are true. EVERY TIME I ask if someone has read the essays to try and understand my challenges with the church, they say, "sure I have." So then I start questioning. "So, what do you think about the Fanny Alger story? What do you think about the "translation" of the Book of Abraham?" And it becomes VERY clear they haven't read the essays. It's the same reason why, unless you've left to sin by living with someone or turning gay, they don't ask. It's all cognitive dissonance, and they don't want to hear it. End of story.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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LostGirl
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by LostGirl » Thu May 18, 2017 4:40 am

I have figured out that they really just don't want to know. What they don't know can't hurt them.

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Enoch Witty
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by Enoch Witty » Thu May 18, 2017 7:38 am

MerrieMiss, when you describe your relationship with your husband, it reminds me so much of the relationship I had with my wife before I came out as a non-believer last year. For years and years, I wouldn't hide my issues with the church, but I would stop short of saying I didn't believe, and she never pursued it further. It was pretty much exactly as you described.

When I finally told her, her response was, "Well, it's not like what you're telling me is any surprise." I could have reacted negatively: "Well, if you knew I wasn't happy, why didn't you say something?!" But instead I just realized: this was not her responsibility to bring up this hard topic, and I was the one who needed to take the step. And I'm so glad I did.

I recognize how hard it is to cross this barrier, and also the potential for backfire, but I get the impression from your posts that you're reaching a breaking point. Obviously only you can decide if and when the time has come, but a new home in a new ward... it seems like a reasonable time to make an attempt at a new lifestyle.

Hopefully I'm not crossing a line by offering this unsolicited advice, but I feel a keen sense of empathy and kindred-spirit-ness when I read your posts. Best wishes to you.

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oliblish
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by oliblish » Thu May 18, 2017 9:47 am

Even if someone asks, they usually don't really want to know.

When I first revealed to my wife I didn't believe she asked me why. I gently told her a few things about Joseph Smith that I had trouble accepting (polygamy, etc). She became very upset and asked why I was saying these things! I told her that I was answering her question - but she was still upset. After a few moments she calmed down and realized that she had actually asked the questions but still didn't want to talk about these things. The subject has rarely come up since.

It was a bizarre experience but looking back on it I realized that saying negative things about the church is viewed by her as a personal attack on her because her identity is based on the church.
Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham

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alas
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by alas » Thu May 18, 2017 11:27 am

oliblish wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 9:47 am
It was a bizarre experience but looking back on it I realized that saying negative things about the church is viewed by her as a personal attack on her because her identity is based on the church.
This right here. TBMs identity is so tied up in the church that to say anything bad about the church is to attack them, and for you to stop loving the church, is to stop loving them.

So, they have to find out who they are outside of church and they have to learn to trust that you love them and your apostasy does not mean that you don't love them and want a divorce.

I don't really have advice other than the standard of increase your efforts to show you love them, go slow. My only other thought is to slowly bring up issues, not to "discuss" so much as to just say how you feel. You can comment of a talk, to say "I think _____________ about what this speaker said." And if they want to discuss good, if not they are one step closer to understanding what you think. And it puts you one step closer to telling them you no longer believe.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by MerrieMiss » Sat May 20, 2017 2:09 pm

I've been very busy this week, and it's been a rather lousy week for a myriad of reasons, only one of which is church. I appreciate the comments and the empathy.

I almost told my husband once a couple years ago. I don't remember what we were talking about but I said something like, "But I just don't believe in the church" saw the look on his face and back tracked, "the way I used to." Not exactly a lie, but not really what I wanted to say either. It's frightening for both parties.
oliver_denom wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 3:41 am
So what to do? If you can't untangle the deep contradictions and emotions, then it's best to use the time honored Mormon tradition of ignore, suppress, be passive aggressive, and explode. Rinse and repeat.
And I use those tools as well. I really do think think there is value in taking it slow, but then I wonder if I take it too slow. Maybe I'm not taking it slow at all, perhaps I'm just stalling. Or waiting for someone else to make the first move so I can blame them. And I worry that once I announce my non-belief it's something I can't take back and I am no longer credible. Suddenly he will be circumspect regarding everything I say. So I do my share of suppressing, ignoring, and exploding as well.
Hagoth wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 7:54 pm
One more thought. If I see my wife crying for no obvious reason I immediately assume that it's because of something stupid that I've done. Is there any chance that he's thinking jumping to the wrong conclusion about something?
I do't think so. I think he believes there's nothing he can do to help, and so why bother asking. I think what bothered me most about it was his impatience to get to Sunday School. And I get it, it was our first Sunday, if our kids in their new classes (most specifically the kid in Nursery) needed us, the parking lot isn't where the teachers would come to look, but having a complete breakdown outside and being hurried along so you can get to Sunday School class was just irritating and hurtful, particularly when neither of us even likes Sunday School.
Enoch Witty wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 7:38 am
I recognize how hard it is to cross this barrier, and also the potential for backfire, but I get the impression from your posts that you're reaching a breaking point. Obviously only you can decide if and when the time has come, but a new home in a new ward... it seems like a reasonable time to make an attempt at a new lifestyle.
If we had moved just a little farther away I might feel more confident in this. Unfortunately, we're in the same stake, just a different community. Although there are times I really think I could tell him, it's just his parents I can't stand knowing about it (they live close by). But you're right - I'm definitely nearing a breaking point. Had we stayed in the old ward I think I could have covertly TBMed for a long time. I just don't want to put forth the effort in a new place. I barely filled out the questionnaire they gave me.

Thoughtful
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by Thoughtful » Sat May 20, 2017 2:31 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 2:09 pm
I've been very busy this week, and it's been a rather lousy week for a myriad of reasons, only one of which is church. I appreciate the comments and the empathy.

I almost told my husband once a couple years ago. I don't remember what we were talking about but I said something like, "But I just don't believe in the church" saw the look on his face and back tracked, "the way I used to." Not exactly a lie, but not really what I wanted to say either. It's frightening for both parties.
oliver_denom wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 3:41 am
So what to do? If you can't untangle the deep contradictions and emotions, then it's best to use the time honored Mormon tradition of ignore, suppress, be passive aggressive, and explode. Rinse and repeat.
And I use those tools as well. I really do think think there is value in taking it slow, but then I wonder if I take it too slow. Maybe I'm not taking it slow at all, perhaps I'm just stalling. Or waiting for someone else to make the first move so I can blame them. And I worry that once I announce my non-belief it's something I can't take back and I am no longer credible. Suddenly he will be circumspect regarding everything I say. So I do my share of suppressing, ignoring, and exploding as well.
Hagoth wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 7:54 pm
One more thought. If I see my wife crying for no obvious reason I immediately assume that it's because of something stupid that I've done. Is there any chance that he's thinking jumping to the wrong conclusion about something?
I do't think so. I think he believes there's nothing he can do to help, and so why bother asking. I think what bothered me most about it was his impatience to get to Sunday School. And I get it, it was our first Sunday, if our kids in their new classes (most specifically the kid in Nursery) needed us, the parking lot isn't where the teachers would come to look, but having a complete breakdown outside and being hurried along so you can get to Sunday School class was just irritating and hurtful, particularly when neither of us even likes Sunday School.
Enoch Witty wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 7:38 am
I recognize how hard it is to cross this barrier, and also the potential for backfire, but I get the impression from your posts that you're reaching a breaking point. Obviously only you can decide if and when the time has come, but a new home in a new ward... it seems like a reasonable time to make an attempt at a new lifestyle.
If we had moved just a little farther away I might feel more confident in this. Unfortunately, we're in the same stake, just a different community. Although there are times I really think I could tell him, it's just his parents I can't stand knowing about it (they live close by). But you're right - I'm definitely nearing a breaking point. Had we stayed in the old ward I think I could have covertly TBMed for a long time. I just don't want to put forth the effort in a new place. I barely filled out the questionnaire they gave me.
I can relate to this. I don't see any likelihood of progress in making it easier to be open in my marriage until my MIL dies and spouseman finishes grieving. If my ILs knew, they would actively try to bust up my marriage.

The comment above about frustration with church feeling like a personal attack to the TBM. Spouseman thinks any historical info I share is "bashing" even if it's interesting and even positive. He tenses up and shuts down if I tell him about what I'm learning. I feel frustrated because it's difficult to find common ground (things at church used to mutually annoy us) because he doesn't want to give the impression he agrees, and I don't want to give him false hope that I've changed my mind. He also blames my friends who have left for turning me against the church, in his eyes, which really isn't accurate, but I don't want to address it because to me it sounds like he's saying I'm easily influenced. Round and round we go... only we don't actually go rounds. We focus on common ground and ignore the elephants.

I want to ask him to listen to the Year of Polygamy, I want him to be able to SEE... but I believe he would hear it as an ultimatum or blaming him for something, which of course he has done nothing. He feels my pain... but my pain hurts him because he sees his job as keeping me happy. It's hard for a TBM to separate themselves from the church. Anger at the church=Anger at him. I could be angry at anything else and he would join me in trying to resolve the conflicts. Whereas this is always an elephant.

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Give It Time
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by Give It Time » Sat May 20, 2017 3:20 pm

I sometimes think it's that part of our lizard brain that says if anyone's weak, push 'em to the edges and let the predators have them. But that's just me. Connecting with my more evolved side, I say it's fear. For whatever reasons. It will vary from person to person, but it's fear.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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MoPag
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by MoPag » Sun May 21, 2017 5:45 pm

I don't have anything to offer in the way of advice-just ((HUGS))

Also, I wish I lived near you and we could be friends and go to Starbucks and watch rated R movies. :twisted:
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Newme
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by Newme » Mon May 22, 2017 8:15 am

MerrieMiss wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 4:24 pm
It's frustrating, because it feels like this puts the responsibility of the faith transition on me. If I keep my mouth shut, everything will be fine. It's a "Don't ask, Don't tell" solution and it's killing me inside.
I know, it's lonely and it's frustrating that people can't love better. But they can't - they simply don't have the understanding to.
I imagine it's a combination of different factors:

-Pride - desire to feel right, not wrong, in-control, not cluelessly out of control.
-Habit of not questioning things - just blindly going along like a herd - not rocking the "good ship."
-Laziness or too tired to do the work necessary to sift through everything intellectually and emotionally.
-Of course, the fear of being shunned and possibly losing everything - employment (esp. if their job depends on their church activity to any degree), marriage, family, friends.
-The thinking's been done for them - they refuse to grow up and learn to think for themselves.
-The church is more important to them than God (who is ultimate love/truth).

That last one is a big one. I just read the following in a comment from this article: http://www.ldsliving.com/Surviving-a-Fa ... rs/s/80563

"...The apparent growing disaffection isn't with the Savior, but with church leadership's paradoxical and contradictory teachings and conduct (institutional racism, polygamy/polyandry, BOM inconsistencies) and the lack of transparency in history and finances. People are leaving the church, not necessarily the Savior (excepting those who were taught to believe the two are synonymous when they are not)."

Many of my family & friends who know about some of my doubts or my faith crisis, assume (as they're taught to), that when I move away belief-wise from the church, I'm moving away from God and all that is good - but that's wrong! They are worshiping a false god! The church is not God - and in word it's never said it is, but in deed, the church is very much worshiped by its members, as leaders repeatedly command. THAT's evil. It's even the 1st of the 10-basic commandments Moses gave thousands of years ago. So freaking basic - yet peer pressure is blinding.

Anyway, MerrieMiss, you have us here - and we want to know what you think and feel. And, more importantly, you have God - as you understand God. Lately, I've been trying to develop and strengthen faith in God's love for me - because that's what I crave most - unconditional love.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: No One Ever Asks

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri May 26, 2017 8:47 am

MoPag wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:45 pm
I don't have anything to offer in the way of advice-just ((HUGS))

Also, I wish I lived near you and we could be friends and go to Starbucks and watch rated R movies. :twisted:
That'd be great! As I walked to my car for the last hour of church last Sunday I thought to myself, "It's really too bad we don't have a NOM ward in real life, because that would be the best."

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