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A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:23 am
by NOWmormon
Each day, for the rest of May, please share your honest response to each temple recommend question, based on what you believe right now.
#7
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Personal thought:
When I answer this question, I think of fringe/radical groups.
But digging deeper, its overreaching objective is really to control members spiritually, as well as intellectually.
For heavens sake, we can’t even agree with one single individual? Let alone affiliate with them?
And if we do, we can’t go the heaven? (Celestial Kingdom)
This is a slap in the face to “free agency”.
And contradicts the “in the world, not of the world” philosophy.
Also, digging even deeper, this stealthily manipulates members into avoiding all non-official church media, including sites like reddit, new order mormon, etc, to the point where members may even feel guilty when doing it.
This is similar to shopping center security cameras.
They want your money, but they don’t trust you.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:36 am
by Nonny
The original intent of this question was to ferret out polygamists. (Like asking a simple question was really going to do the trick.) So that is the interpretation I use. No, I don't affiliate with groups who oppose the teachings of the LDS church. Unless you count NOM, John Dehlin, mama dragons, fmh, Ordain Women .....
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:42 am
by redjay
Nonny wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2017 6:36 am
The original intent of this question was to ferret out polygamists. (Like asking a simple question was really going to do the trick.) So that is the interpretation I use. No, I don't affiliate with groups who oppose the teachings of the LDS church. Unless you count NOM, John Dehlin, mama dragons, fmh, Ordain Women .....
This /\
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:50 am
by Dravin
Taken at face value, and due to how freaking vague the question is, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can answer "no". Sure, if you explain to the Bishop you mean that you pay taxes to government and government engages in practices contrary to church teachings, or that your degree affiliates you with a university that teaches things contrary to church teachings, or that the professional group you belong to take position the church wouldn't agree with, or that you go to movies thereby financially supporting Hollywood and it's causes, they'll wave it aside and move on (at least they most likely will). In the end, even if you get a pass you had to answer yes due to the vagueness of the question.
You'll hear some argue with it being an anti-polygamist trap, but it's pretty much
only as an anti-polygamist or Mormon splinter group trap that I could answer no. Broaden it's scope ever so slightly or open the flood gates, either way my answer flips to a resounding yes.
Nonny wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2017 6:36 am
Like asking a simple question was really going to do the trick.
Well, when you expect the Father of Lies, the Deceiver Of The Whole World, even the Old Serpent himself to get tripped up by handshakes (D&C 129), just how smart do you think his polygamist minions could be?
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:25 am
by wtfluff
NOWmormon wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2017 4:23 am
#7
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
7)
YES! Just like Jesus did when (if) he lived, and EXACTLY like THOUSANDS of LDS missionaries do
EVERY DAY. (I would personally LOVE to answer this question just like this in the presence of the general contractor down the street who's been "called" as Bishop, but alas, It will never happen.)
If you don't want mormons "affiliating with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the
Corporation™", stop telling them it's their job to "Proclaim the gospel"; Stop forcing teenagers to waste 18-24 months of their lives selling the defective product, and start allowing them, and everyone else to live your 11th article of faith.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:11 am
by Just This Guy
Yes.
Between NOM, IOT, MS, OW, (any more aberrations I can add?) as well as supporting gay rights, science, and transparency of use of government favored position (tax exemption).
I'm sure there are plenty more things that the church could hold against me.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:40 am
by oliblish
I renewed my TR last year and when asked this question I replied:
"I am a registered Republican. Is that ok?"
I passed
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:08 pm
by Corsair
NOWmormon wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2017 4:23 am
#7
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Yes. I am friends with people who think coffee is a good idea.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:58 pm
by alas
When my daughter married her partner we drove them to California because same sex marriage was legal there, but not in Utah, so we were the witnesses, best man and matron of honor, father and mother of the bride, as well as the whole wedding party.
Since I was still undercover then and nuancing most of my answers, I specifically asked on this one. I said that I not only affiliate with people who support same sex marriage, I myself encourage and enable it, and drive those wishing to be married to Cali and celebrate with them.
When he said it really means polygamy, I asked, why don't they just ask that question? He fully agreed with me that the question is so vague as to be worthless because everyone has some group of affiliation that does not agree with church teachings.
So, like the question about conduct toward family, the question is so vague as to be worthless, unless they just want people to confess to a bunch of unimportant stuff.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:02 pm
by Nonny
Dravin wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2017 6:50 am
Taken at face value, and due to how freaking vague the question is, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can answer "no". Sure, if you explain to the Bishop you mean that you pay taxes to government and government engages in practices contrary to church teachings, or that your degree affiliates you with a university that teaches things contrary to church teachings, or that the professional group you belong to take position the church wouldn't agree with, or that you go to movies thereby financially supporting Hollywood and it's causes, they'll wave it aside and move on (at least they most likely will). In the end, even if you get a pass you had to answer yes due to the vagueness of the question.
You'll hear some argue with it being an anti-polygamist trap, but it's pretty much
only as an anti-polygamist or Mormon splinter group trap that I could answer no. Broaden it's scope ever so slightly or open the flood gates, either way my answer flips to a resounding yes.
Nonny wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2017 6:36 am
Like asking a simple question was really going to do the trick.
Well, when you expect the Father of Lies, the Deceiver Of The Whole World, even the Old Serpent himself to get tripped up by handshakes (D&C 129), just how smart do you think his polygamist minions could be?
LOL !
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:15 pm
by Give It Time
oliblish wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2017 8:40 am
I renewed my TR last year and when asked this question I replied:
"I am a registered Republican. Is that ok?"
I passed
Excellent!
NOM does not teach nor practice anything.
If you attend school, pretty much any school, things will be taught there that are contrary to the church. Yeah, verily, even BYU. My place of work is probably 97% Mormon. Yet, they have well used coffee machines and they mark celebrations with champagne. Definitely practices that aren't in keeping with the church.
Snarky answer: not anymore than anyone else.
Answer I'd give, because it's close enough (like everyone else,): no.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:50 pm
by 2bizE
A few answers:
Except for the boy scouts, no.
I've always wanted to be a polygamist, but I've never associated with any.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:37 am
by Guy
No.
But my definition of this is different than most. I view this as associating with people who are either; members who are actively / purposefully acting against the teachings of the Church (Snufferites), or non-members / ex-members who are actively trying to convert members away from the Church (TLM). I don't know or associate with any of those, so "no".
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:20 am
by Random
NOWmormon wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2017 4:23 am
#7
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
My brother was anti-Mormon, and I had some friends over the years who also were. When asked this question, I used to tell the interviewer that my brother was anti-Mormon and they would always brush it off. They were looking for something like polygamist groups, or people who met together teaching each other anti-Mormon stuff.
But, now? I would have to say yes. I believe Denver Snuffer is a true messenger from God. An excommunicated member (who even earned a circle with his name in it in the church's powerpoint leaked on Mormon Leaks).
And, nearly every Sunday, I meet with people who take the sacrament without any permission from church leaders - most of whom were either excommunicated or coerced to resign (I think I'm the only one who resigned voluntarily). We also eat as much bread as we want and drink wine. Most of my present friends are in this movement. We teach each other a lot of stuff the church would not like.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:22 am
by Random
Dravin wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2017 6:50 am
Taken at face value, and due to how freaking vague the question is, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can answer "no"
Exactly. We could make quite a long list. And I think the church, itself, could even be on that list.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:00 am
by Mormorrisey
Didn't it seem like they added the words "agree with" a little while ago? That's the one that will nail us all in the end, methinks. Yeah, I agree a lot these days with the church's critics - but I also agree that the way this is phrased is so elastic as to mean nothing. So this one I'm not to worried about. But I'm sure the powers that be could make a case that I'm not following this counsel.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:05 am
by Silver Girl
Gosh, I support Christian churches that practice transparency in finances and believe we should not lie to people. I support academic institutions that have strict rules about plagiarism. I support the humane treatment of all persons, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, income level, etc.
I think I'd probably flunk this question. The church doesn't practice those things or support the same values.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:47 am
by ulmite
Yes, most predominantly everyone who wants LGBT temple marriages and ordain women. And also science.
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:08 am
by wtfluff
ulmite wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2017 5:47 am
And also science.
Genius!
Yes, I support, affiliate with, and agree with SCIENCE!
(Science is not a group or individual, so I guess it's still ok to support, affiliate with and agree...)
Re: A different Q15 --------- Question #7 (NOM)
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:14 pm
by Can of Worms
Yes - I support and associate with my father who is gay (I even stay with him and his partner of 36 years), my cousins who very publicly left the church, and hold very liberal political views (there are issues that I don't agree with but I believe others should still have the right to make their own choices).
I agree with other posters that this is a control issue.