Meeting with SP after Voting Opposed

[Emower]

I mostly stayed quiet throughout the meeting. But when asked to give a yes or no to sustaining the brotheren, I responded similar to Kori stating that I can sustain them as prophets, seers, revelators. But I disagree with policy's being made. I explained I feel they have gotten things wrong in the past too and that I can no longer see their decisions as synonymous with God but that they are men making mistakes and it's possible for them to misinterpret revelations and or make wrong decisions. The sp agreed they aren't perfect and that if I disagree w things I should pray about it. Kori and I both argued what happens when we pray and still disagree?? It came to a stalemate on that topic. But then it came back to me needing to give a yes or no. I couldn't say yes to the 2nd part of the question.

"as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?"

I was vague in stating I'm not sure I can say yes to that part. He went off and explained they are not the only ones w the priesthood, just the only ones authorized to exercise all. I thought um that's not quite what I mean by not agreeing with it but didn't bother going into detail. Instead I explained as kori did that I don't agree w my TR being taken away for voting opposed however I candidly said I don't think I can say yes to other questions in the TR interview. He obviously wanting a yes sincerely wanting to give me the benefit of the doubt said maybe we should have another meeting to go over that and as kori said the SP told me not to use my TR. I argued that point but as Kori said the SP is protecting me by asking me to not go. He said you should never go into the temple questioning these things. This idea make absolutely no sense to me. But not much does anymore. I am seriously considering going to the temple. Not out of defiance but I think the end of my TR is near so I think it may be worth a try to sincerely take my questions to the temple and see if I feel anything? If I did this would you give the sp notice or ask for forgiveness after?

I always wanted to make absolutely sure that I gave it 100% in trying to find out if the church were true. I don't know that I had pure intent, it was mainly to tell people that "yes in fact I did take my questions to god, and I did it in his house, in the celestial room where I have heard you bear your testimony is the closest we can approach him!" So in that case, I say go, use it, get the boring silence that is coming, and then don't look back.

[Random]

I am seriously considering going to the temple. Not out of defiance but I think the end of my TR is near so I think it may be worth a try to sincerely take my questions to the temple and see if I feel anything? If I did this would you give the sp notice or ask for forgiveness after?

I would go, and not say anything to the sp. Your battle is between you and God, not between you and the sp or the top leaders. If you can, find out what God would have you do. If he gives you an answer, it may not be what the sp thinks you should do/believe. I would sit there and meditate, going as deep as I could into my heart of hearts in the celestial room. What does your inner soul tell you? That's what I would be looking for.

[redjay]

Korihor/Miss

Perhaps I missed it, but...

Was there any point at which the SP said he would feed your concerns back up the church hierarchy?

If not, it makes a bit of the sham - it would seem the voting system is merely a process of weeding out the non-conformists.

[Misbehaved Woman]

Korihor/Miss

Perhaps I missed it, but...

Was there any point at which the SP said he would feed your concerns back up the church hierarchy?

If not, it makes a bit of the sham - it would seem the voting system is merely a process of weeding out the non-conformists.

Yes, he did say we could write a letter and he he would send it up the chain. He reassured us it would get to the first presidency and they would read and respond. We know better then to believe that though.

[alas]

Korihor/Miss

Perhaps I missed it, but...

Was there any point at which the SP said he would feed your concerns back up the church hierarchy?

If not, it makes a bit of the sham - it would seem the voting system is merely a process of weeding out the non-conformists.

Yes, he did say we could write a letter and he he would send it up the chain. He reassured us it would get to the first presidency and they would read and respond. We know better then to believe that though.

I had a bishop send a letter up the chain of command and there was no response. My issue was that my father was exed for sexually abusing me as a child, and the church promised that my and my mother's feelings would be respected when it came time to rebaptise him and that absolutly we had to give permission. Well, our feelings were trampled under male enthusiasm to redunk the "repentant sinner" and in spite of both of us saying that we did not feel there had been real repentance, he was rebaptised. I told the bishop how that made me feel like God doesn't give a s*** about women and only loves his sons. I also told him how my father's confidentiality was respected, but mine was not. One bishop told the next bishop, who told the next bishop, and it was not done so they could help me, but because they saw me as damaged goods and thought me unworthy of a calling. I went into a bit of the other stories about how the whole thing was handled, which all amounted to the church does not understand, nor care to understand about abuse and the real life consequences. The bishop was himself upset and horrified about how things had been handled and decided on his own to run things up the chain of command. There were things in the official way things are handled that need to be changed to respect the innocent victims of sin. But neither I nor the bishop ever heard squat back.

So, the first presidency's response is to let their secretary read it for inspirational tidbits they can use in a conference talk and if there isn't that, it goes unread by first presidency into the circular file.



PS, why is it putting extra quotes around things?

[Anon70]

I had a bishop send a letter up the chain of command and there was no response. My issue was that my father was exed for sexually abusing me as a child, and the church promised that my and my mother's feelings would be respected when it came time to rebaptise him and that absolutly we had to give permission. Well, our feelings were trampled under male enthusiasm to redunk the "repentant sinner" and in spite of both of us saying that we did not feel there had been real repentance, he was rebaptised. I told the bishop how that made me feel like God doesn't give a s*** about women and only loves his sons. I also told him how my father's confidentiality was respected, but mine was not. One bishop told the next bishop, who told the next bishop, and it was not done so they could help me, but because they saw me as damaged goods and thought me unworthy of a calling. I went into a bit of the other stories about how the whole thing was handled, which all amounted to the church does not understand, nor care to understand about abuse and the real life consequences. The bishop was himself upset and horrified about how things had been handled and decided on his own to run things up the chain of command. There were things in the official way things are handled that need to be changed to respect the innocent victims of sin. But neither I nor the bishop ever heard squat back.

I'm so sorry for your experience. It does seem the victims end up being the ones punished while the abuser is welcomed back with open arms .

[Hagoth]

The SP said no because she shouldn't go and make covenants that she's not sure about. He tried to play it as if he's protecting her.

Presumably your wife has been to the temple before. What covenants would she be making during return visits to the temple? Those covenants are for the deceased... or do we view vicarious work in the temple as a way for the living to renew their covenants as well?

Also, the problem the SP has with her was that she questions whether the current Prophets, Seers, Etc. are making inspired decisions. What specific part of the temple ritual requires you to not have any doubts about the divine batphone of Thomas Monson, particularly concerning policies that were generated by a law firm?

[asa]

FWIW When I am asked about priesthood keys and who possesses them I always respond no he clearly doesn't have all priesthood keys. I show the SP statements by Pres Kimball that they do not have the "keys" of resurrection or translation etc and others almost certainly hold as many keys as Pres Monson . For instance translated beings like the three Nephites and John the Revealator are others who are on the earth who possess a plethora of keys .I then follow with I think he has authority to preside and conduct the affairs of the church and I am not aware of anyone else who does. This approach ( which some I sure think is sophistry but actually reflects my present thinking) has always worked. The bishop and SP look at me like they had never thought about that and sign my TR. I will also say that I can say I sustain the GAs like I sustain Trump ( who I think is an idiot and for whom I did not vote ) as President.Finally the SP had no right or power to ask you questions about your beliefs beyond the authorized TR questions. Don't give him authority over you by playing his games. Good luck.

[redjay]

Alas I'm sorry for the pain you've experienced.

Miss - thanks for answering my question, I am somewhat relieved that they at least made gestures about feeding concerns back up the line. Perhaps the Brethren will get the message in the end and it will prompt change - unfortunately I should imagine that most of the people who vote opposed are already so disaffected that they will not stick around to see the changes that will come so very slowly.

[Korihor]

I told Mrs Misbehaved that I'm thinking if they take my TR, I will return it to them with my resignation letter. If I can't be a member in good standing with my views, I don't see why I should be a member at all.

I have to admit, I have not keep up with this board as much as I have in the past, but from some of your earlier threads I have read, I was under the impression that you were pretty much done with the church, at least mentally, and now that your wife is on board with you, what's keeping you in the church? Why do you care if the SP takes your TR, and why do you care if you're a member in good standing?

Prior to you asking this questions, it's a topic I thought a lot about. Additionally, I've thought about it even more since you asked it, it's been in the background of my mind.

The short answer its "I'm not sure". You are correct, I was mentally out a while ago. This has been an evolution for me and us. Even though it appears Mrs Misbehaved is "out", neither of us were/are able to put it in our rear view mirror. I've been consumed by this whole transition much more than I could have initially imagined. I think Mrs Misbehaved would have a similar view.

Part of us has been longing for what we'll lose. Both of us weren't ready to leave behind many friends. Also, there was a sense of altruism to pave the way for some other future unfortunate soul in stake that could benefit from us at least exposing the leadership how to handle this. Part of me feels I dedicated my entire life roof to this for 33 years, I wasn't going down without a fight.

I think the real answer to your question, LostMormon, is that there was still a lot of attachment there that both of us didn't realize. We didn't rip off the bandaid but has slowly pulled it, hair by hair. Right or wrong, this was our way. I don't know if we could have done it any other way.

On Saturday, we met up with some family for a Bday party. I had a spare moment and told my MIL that we met with the BP and I know how this ends. I either stop now and just walk away or eventually they'll Ex me. She seemed disturbed (obviously) and asked why I couldn't just walk away. She couldn't understand what would drive me to that end. I tried explaining as best I could why it was so morally important to me but it was pointless. Just as pointless as trying to explain it to the BP and SP.

Yesterday afternoon, we returned to our house and found some ants had invaded our cupboard. We lost some crackers, some vinegar, and some other odds and ends. It sucked. After clearing out the cupboards, cleaning everything and just feeling icky, we called it too much to handle and went out to dinner. We stopped by a little pizza joint near by. I was feeling whatever I was feeling and decided "WTH, I'll have a beer". Dinner and the remainder of the evening was nice.

Background info ----- we have made good friends through our crossfit gym. To be honest, this gym has saved our sanity and marriage. Even more so with Mrs Misbehaved than me. She freaking loves it there. What makes it so awesome is the people. Sweating your ass off is fun and all, but the people make the difference. These past few months, we've found community. -----
Today we went to a pool party at the house of some friends from Crossfit. Above their front door is a sign that says "Mrs and Mrs, Established 2007" These are wonderful women and are so kind and fun. Lots of people came, the pool was fun, the food was tasty and as you can imagine, lots of adults beverages that gave beauty and variety to the party and I did partake.

I was reflecting on this weekend. We missed church and didn't feel like we really missed anything. We went out to dinner (and I had a beer) on a sunday evening. We both commented it stills feel odd going out on sunday as it's new to us, but neither felt guilt. We had a fun workout this morning at the Gym that was done to honor those who've served on Memorial Day, and both felt we both enjoyed and observed the holiday. We had fun pool party at a lesbian couples house and did what normal people do at pool parties. A year or so ago, I could have never imagined actually experiencing a weekend such as this one.

Today, as both LostMormon and MIL commented, I also felt like saying "what's the point?, maybe I should just walk away." Maybe I'm finally ready to do just that.