Taking the garment step

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Linked
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Taking the garment step

Post by Linked » Fri May 26, 2017 9:51 am

I want to stop wearing garments. I don't mind the fit and I've gotten used to always having them on and stuff, but I want to take back my underwear choice from the church I don't believe in. I also want to put my money where my mouth is as far as telling my wife and family that I no longer believe. And I want to keep the thought of "he says he believes differently, but clearly it still means something to him cause he is keeping his covenants and wearing garments" from coming up.

So a couple times this week I changed out of garments and into more comfortable clothes after work. The first time was uneventful. But last night I think it got to my wife. She completely lost it and was screaming at me in front of our kids before she stormed off. But all she screamed was that she was upset. And later when we talked all she said is that she was tired. And when I asked if she wanted to talk about anything she said "what's the point, it's not going to change anything." So really I am just guessing that it was the garments. And it is so annoying that she absolutely refuses to talk. But I thought it would be better to just hold her for a few minutes and let the moment pass than to force it into one of those conversations.

And I am really frustrated that when she gets like this my kids have been trained to think that I am hurting her and being mean to her. The screaming is a her problem. Her inability to communicate and holding everything in until she explodes is a her problem. And then her sulking for days is a her problem. Daddy isn't the cause of that.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri May 26, 2017 10:55 am

This is a purely emotional issue for your wife because she sees garments like she does you wearing a wedding ring on business trips. Same thing in her mind. Choose your battles carefully.

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Linked
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by Linked » Fri May 26, 2017 11:28 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 10:55 am
This is a purely emotional issue for your wife because she sees garments like she does you wearing a wedding ring on business trips. Same thing in her mind. Choose your battles carefully.
It's funny you mention that, I don't wear a wedding ring, I hate the feel of jewelry on my skin. But I am faithful and good to her. The one thing I did say while she was mad was that I think we have a good thing together.

She has said that whether or not she decides to divorce me depends on what I become. I think I am ready to start becoming and let her decide if I'm worth divorcing. It feels harsh to say that, but I don't think it will be good to suppress myself for her or for me and especially for our kids. If a loving bread winner isn't good enough then that is a her problem to.

(I reserve the right to have the exact opposite opinion next week :))
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri May 26, 2017 12:02 pm

Linked wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 11:28 am
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 10:55 am
This is a purely emotional issue for your wife because she sees garments like she does you wearing a wedding ring on business trips. Same thing in her mind. Choose your battles carefully.
It's funny you mention that, I don't wear a wedding ring, I hate the feel of jewelry on my skin. But I am faithful and good to her. The one thing I did say while she was mad was that I think we have a good thing together.

She has said that whether or not she decides to divorce me depends on what I become. I think I am ready to start becoming and let her decide if I'm worth divorcing. It feels harsh to say that, but I don't think it will be good to suppress myself for her or for me and especially for our kids. If a loving bread winner isn't good enough then that is a her problem to.

(I reserve the right to have the exact opposite opinion next week :))
I hear you, it's so hard to be held captive in your family relationships by ideology. My current battle is over sabbath activities and what restrictions the kids and I have. I openly taunt the status quo by wearing and watching and doing mostly what I want, even when the inlaws come over, but in very small degrees of change so as not to topple the entire apple cart. As far as garments, I haven't crossed that bridge entirely, but I'm happy to remove them for ANY recreational activity, including lawn mowing. They always appear back on at night which keeps things "normal".

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri May 26, 2017 12:08 pm

It's so stupid that this happens all because of frumpy 19th century underwear. No, it's about more than the underwear, but really. I wish my husband would ditch the garments. They take up so much room in the laundry!!! My husband wasn't pleased when I took mine off either. He's used to it now, but he bristles when I mention wearing a sleeveless shirt or something like that (unless we're on a special date, then it's okay).

Sorry to hear it bothers her so much. I can't really give any advice, other than what FFM said about it being like a wedding ring. Also, I read Kristy Money's Backfire Effect booklet this week, and it's made me rethink the way I want to frame and discuss this with my husband. It's sad in a way, that she's the one presenting info like this, when the church is the one who says it's all about families. You'd think they'd do a better job.

http://mormonjourneys.org/wp-content/up ... e-book.pdf

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alas
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by alas » Fri May 26, 2017 1:19 pm

I don't have any advice except the usual of take t slow. Give your wife plenty of time to adjust to one change before making the next, and expect a melt down.

New thought. We have an autistic grandson----well, OK, autism runs in the family because my daughter was diagnosed as an adult, (back in the 80s, aspies were just not recognized and she has no symptoms of classical autism, but she is on the spectrum.) and the autistic child is not hers. So, taking a lesson from my autistic people about melt downs, the melt down happens because they feel the world is running out of control. Tiny things like a menu change could set of my daughter into an hour screaming fit. They react very strongly to any change because the change not in their control feels like the whole world is falling down around them and they are helpless to control it. And it strikes me that this is how your wife if feeling, that is why she doesn't think talking about it after the fact will change anything. It is you mucking up her world and she hates her neat world falling down around her.

So, what I learned with my difficult daughter who turned out to be autistic, and what has worked with the autistic grandchild is when there is any kind of change, sit them down and discuss what the change is and why. Let them digest what the change is going to be, before it happens and then they have less difficulty dealing with it. This way, they are not blindsided by a change. They get a chance to express any feelings about it before it happens and this way, the world feels more like it is under control.

I am not saying your wife is on the autism spectrum, just that there is normal and the autism spectrum is just an extreme of normal.

But this also gives her a chance to say what changes might be total deal breakers for her. That way, you can decide if that is the hill you want to die on, or if it just isn't worth it.

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SeeNoEvil
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by SeeNoEvil » Fri May 26, 2017 1:47 pm

Your wife's response sounded like she was scared. Scared of the unknown, of loosing you, eternal marriage going down the tubes... panic maybe? The saying around here seems to be "take things slow". Maybe the garments was to big of a step. I was going to tell you that maybe you moved to fast but Alas said it better! I like the analogy Alas used. It is a perfect example of how to take a gentler approach. Do you think she might respond better to this approach?
"Every event that has taken place in this universe has led you to this moment.
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown

"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57

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Linked
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by Linked » Fri May 26, 2017 3:07 pm

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I feel like I have been going slow, but the only acceptable speed is to not be moving at all, which I struggle with for reasons known to all of you.
alas wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 1:19 pm
So, what I learned with my difficult daughter who turned out to be autistic, and what has worked with the autistic grandchild is when there is any kind of change, sit them down and discuss what the change is and why. Let them digest what the change is going to be, before it happens and then they have less difficulty dealing with it. This way, they are not blindsided by a change. They get a chance to express any feelings about it before it happens and this way, the world feels more like it is under control.

I am not saying your wife is on the autism spectrum, just that there is normal and the autism spectrum is just an extreme of normal.

But this also gives her a chance to say what changes might be total deal breakers for her. That way, you can decide if that is the hill you want to die on, or if it just isn't worth it.
This is a really good idea. It's funny you mention this being the hill I choose to die on, I was thinking about it being the hill she might choose to die on. I guess both parties have to choose to die on that hill.
SeeNoEvil wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 1:47 pm
I was going to tell you that maybe you moved to fast but Alas said it better! I like the analogy Alas used. It is a perfect example of how to take a gentler approach. Do you think she might respond better to this approach?
I do not have much hope for this approach, my wife hates communicating, even about friendly topics. But it is worth a try.
SeeNoEvil wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 1:47 pm
Your wife's response sounded like she was scared. Scared of the unknown, of loosing you, eternal marriage going down the tubes... panic maybe? The saying around here seems to be "take things slow". Maybe the garments was to big of a step.
Yeah, she is scared. Her world is turning upside down. And my disaffection is the cause. She is afraid of the attention from the ward, she is afraid of becoming a pariah in my family, she is afraid this will crush her mother and destroy the good relationship I have with her family. She is afraid for our kids eternally and temporally. She sees a bleak hell of a future no matter what happens.

So, do I not love her enough to stay in the disaffection closet? I have been staying safely in the closet against my personal desires, but I let my true feelings slip out to my family a month ago. And now half of the people close to me know and I'm half free!
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Emower
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by Emower » Fri May 26, 2017 9:14 pm

Linked wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 11:28 am

She has said that whether or not she decides to divorce me depends on what I become. I think I am ready to start becoming and let her decide if I'm worth divorcing. It feels harsh to say that, but I don't think it will be good to suppress myself for her or for me and especially for our kids. If a loving bread winner isn't good enough then that is a her problem to.

(I reserve the right to have the exact opposite opinion next week :))
I am so sorry. This is a horrible place to be in. My wife is a very emotionally stable person. So take these thought with that in mind. Fairly early on in my journey I asked myself if it came down to it, could I choose my wife over truth or integrity? The answer was yes. I would choose her over anything. That has guided everything for me. It would be supremely difficult to swallow my issues, and it may cause me to resent her later. For now though, she is #1. I think that this knowledge gave her the security to allow me to experiment and change without earthquakes. The garments are a hot button issue for me. I dislike them a lot.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by MalcolmVillager » Sat May 27, 2017 7:04 am

This is such a tough situation. About a year ago I decided I was going to slowly go down the "no g's" road too. I would do it on the sly wiener I could. I would get into workout clothes early and keep them on well after exercise, etc... I found some really comfortable replacements.

My wife found out a few times and wasn't overly mad about it but it didn't make her happy. I realized that I wasn't sure if I was ready to be so out to the world. I still wore a white t-shirt.

What was the point. In my work, neighborhood, and family tribes there is an in-group signal that we all give each other of our sameness and trustworthiness. This is the costume. I don't know if I will ever be completely comfortable while completely ignoring the tribal signals.

I read the Dr Money PDF. It was good. I really like her. She is not the most dynamic or polished presenter but her heart is good and she knows a lot. She has some other really good worksheets and resources.

Your wife's inability to communicate is a problem. It is her problem but yours too. Mine is very similar. It is hard to talk about religion, sex, or very hard things with her.

I don't have great advice for you.

Korihor
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by Korihor » Sat May 27, 2017 8:46 am

Find a good time to talk it out with her. A heart to heart when possible.

And meundies.com
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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Jinx
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Re: Taking the garment step

Post by Jinx » Sat May 27, 2017 2:15 pm

My husband was the first to leave the church and the garments question was a panic moment for me so I completely understand your wife. In our situation my husband is not a great communicator, so I did most of the talking. He reassured me that he didn't want to lose me or the kids, but he was firm in his need to get away from the church and be his true self. I had a really difficult year and a half before my shelf completely collapsed and I joined him. He didn't really take it very slowly - the garments came off and the church attendance stopped at roughly the same time. I wasn't exactly blindsided - I'd known for years that he wasn't a believer. But his leaving forced me to confront my own belief and disbelief, and that was a difficult and painful process for me.

But I finally came around and I'm infinitely happier now than I was in the church. I can't speak for your wife, but do make sure you show extra affection and reassurance if she'll let you. It takes a lot of time to adjust to the "new normal".
“This is the best part of the week!” – Homer Simpson
“It’s the longest possible time before more church!” – Lisa Simpson

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