Playing Chicken

[Enough]

I grew up in the 80s (teen years). Do you remember the scene of "Chicken" in Footloose? I feel like I'm there. Right there. Playing Chicken with a Power who can likely crush me.

I have been living with my "disaffection"/"faith crisis":.. "doubting my doubts" ... whatever label you want to slap on there...for over 20 years. I am tired. I am so very tired. I can't even begin to describe all of the soul-searching, research, study, faith, hope, prayer, YEARS of Bishop/Stake President/Apologist/Other -counsel-seeking- ups & downs -- mistakes, family concessions & exposures-- trying to make a middle-way work -- experiences I've been through. All since the time when I had to research church history from my local City Library. Before internet was even a real thing (the 1990s)...I have felt gut-punched from sources like Journal of Discourses for MANY years...decades, really.

I'm a fighter...(usually) a strong & formidable one. But, I kind of think that I am (finally) at the end of the road. How's that for confidence & strength??

I am finally ready to concede that I can't win this fight. Can any of us win, against heritage, tradition, DEEP family ties, not to mention a billion-dollar corporation? Can we? I used to think I could. Maybe not WIN-- but at least survive with my dignity intact.

I'm not so sure, right now. I truly hope that others out there can make more progress than I have made.

I can't get into specifics, because I would be easily identifiable. I've already been "in trouble" with church leaders, even membership privilege issues. And, -- in the end-- I need to consider the consequences of my words/actions on my devout family members & their "standing". But, here I am again.

The Bishop wants to meet with me on Sunday. I have to decide whether or not to keep trying to make this work-- or accept the inevitable. (I can't stay submissive and "well-behaved" forever). I don't know what to do.

[Korihor]

I think your username says it all - Enough.

Que serà, serà

Sending digital hugs in your struggle.

[Enough]

Korihor-- I will say that your recent Stand (with your dear wife) has inspired me. I wish I was not alone, in my (need to) Stand. But, Yes-- it is Enough. And, I am Enough.

[Linked]

Enough, I'm sorry to hear you are down right now. I hope your situation gets better. Good luck in your meeting with the bishop.

I am finally ready to concede that I can't win this fight. Can any of us win, against heritage, tradition, DEEP family ties, not to mention a billion-dollar corporation? Can we? I used to think I could. Maybe not WIN-- but at least survive with my dignity intact.

That depends on what it means to win. I am not as far down the road of disaffection as you, but I have been chewing on this question too. In my opinion, winning is living a happy life where the church and its arbitrary rules don't affect you negatively. There are a number of ways to get there, from recommitting and being TBM again, to being a cafeteria mormon, to never entering a church building again and burning your scriptures. But for most of us here there are obstacles to all of these. For me personally I can't see myself ever being TBM again, I would have a hard time being a cafeteria mormon, and burning my scriptures would cost me my family and a lot of my happiness. So I can't win. So far my best case scenario looks like being a cafeteria mormon and keeping my family. But this is a rocky road.

[alas]

I did the below the radar, in but not of the church, for some 30 years. I had the talks with leaders, and the years without a calling because I dared to say no to one that was not good for me, and the nuanced TR answers. I finally had enough of trying to pretend to believe the unbelievable. I told my DH that I just don't believe that the church is what it claims. Yeah, there are consequences. My DH considered divorce. My son and his family are not as proud of me. But I am much happier living my life for me instead of living my life to keep the church and the people in the church happy. It just isn't a good way to live, living your life to keep others happy. If they can't love me for who I am, then they don't really love me anyway. So, what was I trying to save? Conditional love and respect? It is just not worth it.

[Enough]

Linked,

Thank you for your empathetic reply --I definitely agree with you, in theory!!

I want to follow-up on something you said:

"In my opinion, winning is living a happy life where the church and its arbitrary rules don't affect you negatively".

Yet.... what kind of Loser am I when the church's rules deem me "unworthy" (unable) to attend my childrens' weddings? (Or mission prep endowments, etc. , for that matter)?

This, to me, affects me very negatively...no matter how I try to see it differently.

[Enough]

I did the below the radar, in but not of the church, for some 30 years. I had the talks with leaders, and the years without a calling because I dared to say no to one that was not good for me, and the nuanced TR answers. I finally had enough of trying to pretend to believe the unbelievable. I told my DH that I just don't believe that the church is what it claims. Yeah, there are consequences. My DH considered divorce. My son and his family are not as proud of me. But I am much happier living my life for me instead of living my life to keep the church and the people in the church happy. It just isn't a good way to live, living your life to keep others happy. If they can't love me for who I am, then they don't really love me anyway. So, what was I trying to save? Conditional love and respect? It is just not worth it.

Yes. I hear you. I think I can finally accept that this is true--though it is still difficult to lose the (albeit conditional) love & respect of important others...not to mention the possibility of divorce.

[Linked]

Linked,

Thank you for your empathetic reply --I definitely agree with you, in theory!!

I want to follow-up on something you said:

"In my opinion, winning is living a happy life where the church and its arbitrary rules don't affect you negatively".

Yet.... what kind of Loser am I when the church's rules deem me "unworthy" (unable) to attend my (only) daughter's wedding? (Or my sons' sealings/mission prep endowments, etc. , for that matter)?

This, to me, affects me very negatively...no matter how I try to see it differently.

Yeah, like I said I'm still figuring this out . The church calling you unworthy reflects more on the church's character than on yours (at least on this board).

It is a really hard situation with kids making decisions that leave apostates like us unable to authentically participate. I am facing this in a couple years when my son will turn 8 and will be super excited to be baptized. And then for another 20 years. Or until I die. Yes, we are in a crappy situation. But at least we've got people to commiserate with...

So what is the least bad path forward?

[SeeNoEvil]

See my pm.

[LostGirl]

Enough, I commiserate with feeling tired of it all. Anyone who says that choosing unbelief is taking the easy way out has never tried it.

So what is the least bad path forward?

It frustrates me that this is the best we can hope for.

[MoPag]

((Hugs)) It's your path not anyone else's. And whatever you decide, know you will always have support here.

Good luck tomorrow. I will say a prayer to Goddess for you!

[Give It Time]

Enough, the only comfort I can give sounds hilariously trite.


Instead, I will just give you a hug. {{{Enough}}}

[Enough]

((Hugs)) It's your path not anyone else's. And whatever you decide, know you will always have support here.

Good luck tomorrow. I will say a prayer to Goddess for you!

LOVE it! And, Thanks for the prayer to HM (Goddess). I will probably need that prayer!

[Red Ryder]

Enough,

You're clearly at the end of your middle way rope! I too am there and guess what? Your feet are only two inches above the ground, dangling there feeling unsafe, scared you'll drop to your death if you let go. Trying with all of your might to hold on and please everyone who matters the most to you in your life and a few who don't like your bishop.

In the end, you do win. You take back your power and become indifferent to the church. What's the bishop going to do? You still have your integrity, your soul, and most importantly your smile! Smile when you walk out of his office and know that you win regardless of what happens.

And divorce? That would be temporary. You'd rebound so fast with everything you have to offer. I better shut up now before I expose my NOM crush list!

[Enough]

You'd rebound so fast with everything you have to offer.

$@&*, it's nice to be noticed for something other than disaffection/ disbelief/ doubt/ deviation/ unfaithfulness/ "unworthiness"! By the way, RR-- I <3 you too. You always make me laugh!!

I'm sitting outside the Bishop's office as I peck out this post on my iPad. He (the Bishop) asked me to meet him here/now. There are 10 others waiting, in chairs outside the office, right now. I want to walk. Walk right now & never look back. The 1st counselor just came out to figure out why so many people are sitting here. It appears that the Bishop has made plans with MANY people, right now during Gospel Doctrine. I feel for him (the Bishop)--- he has a crazy & busy schedule. But #%*^ (I'm in a swearing mood!) -- don't accept the calling as Bishop, if you don't have time to "minister".... or at very least, administer.

[alas]

Let us know how it goes with the bishop.

One common thing I have seen is the time during SS that bishops will verbally tell people to catch him then. He doesn't keep track of how many people he tells to meet him then. He thinks he can get through one calling and one worthiness interview! And forgets he actually scheduled 4 people. Then three more people think for themselves that the bishop often has time during SS, so they just show up. Pretty soon, there are six or seven people expecting to take 40 minutes talking to the bishop during SS.

[Jinx]

In my experience, the only way to win is to refuse to believe. I have learned enough about the church to be able to put it into historical perspective. It is every bit as true as the other cults that cropped up in the nineteenth century. If you see Christian scientists or Oneidans as odd or amusing you can learn to see Mormons the same way.

I refuse to believe any of it - they have no power over me. This makes it easy to say no, easy to miss meetings, easy to zone out. I don't visit teach, I won't pray or speak in SM, I don't attend second and third hour. And I don't care, and I don't miss it.

However, I realize that it's easier for me because I have my immediate family in the same camp. I remember the pain and fear getting this far, the fear of losing everything. I wish I could make this easier for you, but maybe trying to loosen their hold on you will help.

[Enough]

Let us know how it goes with the bishop.

The awesome thing about having 10 other people waiting to talk to the Bishop during a 30-minute Sunday School class (the SM speakers went over by 15 minutes) is that he speeds up his pace about 10 times. Bishop crammed his 15-minute thoughts, feelings (counsel and admonition session... even a bit of empathy) into about 83 seconds. There was hardly a break (or a regular breath) in his monologue long enough for me to get a complete sentence in there even if I wanted to. (I didn't want to, so it worked out nicely for me). Plus, I learned something new.

The very short version of the whole issue/reason for this Bishop-Requested meeting is that I can attend a Temple Dedication without a Temple Recommend (a "regular" one, that is). All I need is a little green ticket (signed by my Bishop)... a "Dedication Recommend". Bishop told me that "They" (whoever "They" are) were going to require a regular Recommend for this event, but now They are giving tickets to any baptized member who wants to go (...most members will watch the broadcast from the Stake Center.) My green ticket is especially special because I am invited to be in the actual Temple for the Dedication. (My DH is singing in the Celestial Choir...and you know...we are One in the Temple.) Bishop and I did not think this would be possible, but it is. Who knew??? I thought he called me in today to give me one last chance to answer the TR questions correctly... even though I just told him last week that I can't do that & I won't lie. My Bishop is a good guy--- just an extraordinarily busy one, because of his profession (and his calling!) He said he would sign my ticket.

Anyway...I consider it a victory because I didn't see any possible way that I would be able to both: support/accompany my DH to the temple (most likely for the last time).... and do it without lying OR having a quick & mighty reconversion experience. Plus, I was particularly stressed about having this event exclusion "out" me to many of my in-laws who would notice/question my absence. So, all in all, it worked out well for me.

[SeeNoEvil]

Anyway...I consider it a victory because I didn't see any possible way that I would be able to both: support/accompany my DH to the temple (most likely for the last time).... and do it without lying OR having a quick & mighty reconversion experience. Plus, I was particularly stressed about having this event exclusion "out" me to many of my in-laws who would notice/question my absence. So, all in all, it worked out well for me.

Yay! Yep, This one was a big one.... you definitely need to be there! Way to go!

[MoPag]

Wonderful news!!! I'm glad that worked out for you!