Prosperity Gospel

[Linked]

I was talking with my brother about church and stuff. He is quite successful and he expressed that he really feels his success has come because he follows the gospel, including tithing. I used to agree with this, but with reservations in the back of my mind. Does paying tithing actually change the outcome of an interview with a potential employer? Now I would say no. As a TBM I would say God can do anything, His ways are not my ways, and I can't afford NOT to pay tithing.

My current argument against the prosperity gospel is that it doesn't make any sense. Your financial success is based on what you do to get money, not whether or not you pay tithing. Also, there are many who don't pay tithing the the LDS church who do well financially. I don't have the data logged exactly, but in my life my income fluctuations have not correlated to my payment of tithing. This works well with someone who agrees with you. But I don't think it is a very strong argument for someone who really believes tithing gives them financial blessings.

What are your arguments against the prosperity gospel often taught with tithing lessons?

[Not Buying It]

I hate hate hate HATE HATE the Prosperity Gospel bs - have you never known a righteous Mormon who was poor? It makes the rich feel proud for both being rich and being righteous enough to be rich, and it makes the poor wonder what they are doing wrong that they aren't rich. It's a horrible belief. Some of the most admirable people I ever knew were poor.

It is a disgusting doctrine and it has no place among those who profess to be Christians. Where did Jesus ever once talk about getting riches by being righteous? He said things like "lay up for yourselves treasure in Heaven" and "you can't serve God and mammon", not "do what is right and you will get rich rich rich!"

Gag. I think I'll go throw up.

[MerrieMiss]

I hate hate hate HATE HATE the Prosperity Gospel bs - have you never known a righteous Mormon who was poor? It makes the rich feel proud for both being rich and being righteous enough to be rich, and it makes the poor wonder what they are doing wrong that they aren't rich. It's a horrible belief. Some of the most admirable people I ever knew were poor.

It is a disgusting doctrine and it has no place among those who profess to be Christians. Where did Jesus ever once talk about getting riches by being righteous? He said things like "lay up for yourselves treasure in Heaven" and "you can't serve God and mammon", not "do what is right and you will get rich rich rich!"

Gag. I think I'll go throw up.

This.

The prosperity gospel was one of my big shelf items growing up. My parents worked so incredibly hard and we never had a lot. I know my mom used to wonder what sin she was committing that was keeping us from being financially stable. (We didn't have a lot because my parents listened to church leaders and got married young and had kids.)

What's my argument against it? Just look around - it's untrue. There are so many good people who do not have a lot. And it's shameful. I think I shared this once before, but my mom asked a SS teacher once why she hadn't been blessed financially and was shamed in front of the entire class for being told she was greedy. And this, from a man who was a total sleaze. It really is a gospel that makes the rich feel good about themselves and keeps the poor down in their place.

[Korihor]

This one always bothered me. Really bothered me.

Just before my shelf snapped I told myself "Alright, I'm gonna be a full tithe payer. It's just 10%. It's just money" I was motivated to work a little hard to cover my overhead (ie tithing) and just viewed it as a challenge in my life just like paying the mortgage. It was just a cost of doing business that if I accounted for it wouldn't be a big deal"

Essentially, I gave up. I said to myself this is my lot in life and to suck it up, buttercup. I recommitted to be a full tithe payer (on net).

1 week later it was all over.

But remember those feelings of trying to force myself to be faithful despite the hurdles. I earn a lifetime achievement award that day in mental gymnastics.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

We had the tithing lesson awhile back and I had an argument with the teacher who is a church employee about the fact that no one is authorized to tell others that gross is the interpretation (based on handbook 1). I wanted to to scream that of course he wanted people to pay gross, it's his salary on the line. He gave the trite phrase that he wants gross blessings. Well if it works that way then why not pay 25% tithing for 15% more blessings!?!

[Mormorrisey]

Count me as among the enraged by the nonsense that is the prosperity gospel.

That's why instead of the poor fishermen disciples of Christ's day, we have a bevy of corporate lawyers, accountants and businessmen running the church at the corporate and local levels. This is why we have malls, suburban development projects and luxury apartments instead of large scale developments helping the poor, or constructing hospitals. This is why those who are prosperous being held up as the standard for the rest of us to emulate, instead of looking closely at the nepotism, corporate cronyism and Mormon royalty families that are running things. Absolute balderdash. (Trying to keep from getting banned so I'll stop there.)

You know what? If I had focused on my career as I should of, sucking up to the right people at my teaching job instead of worrying unduly about my family and being bishop, I betcha I could have been one of the blessed instead of the guy who has been on the cusp of constant unemployment and/or unemployment. I'm not going to call us poor, because in comparison to 90% of the rest of the world, we're doing pretty good. We've never missed a meal, nor have we lost the roof over our heads, or gone around naked. But to hear a bunch of self-righteous a-holes boast of their righteous blessings in the face of the truly poor just makes my blood boil. Luckily, this is not the most affluent area in which I currently reside, so the boasting is kept at a minimum, as most people here struggle to make ends meet. But it's still there to some degree.

And here I was, almost calm and resigned about church things. And then you had to go and piss me off. Thanks a lot, Linked. (The smile is there so you can see that I'm not really all that angry at you, just so there's no confusion.)

[2bizE]

I know many prosperous people who are not Mormons. Some are not of any faith. I.e. J.R. Simplify. I also know many members who pay tithing that are very poor. The GAs even give examples of starving children who their parents pay their tithing before feeding their kids (terrible process/policy).
It makes you feel better that you think you benefit from following the gospel. I don't buy it, but if the gospel makes you more engaged in your work and family, then you could be rewarded at work more often...

[Anon70]

This post reminded me of bishop from my youth. He was wealthy and convinced it was due to being a very rigid Mormon. Letter of the law kind of Guy. For me it's never made sense-how do we reconcile the teachings of Christ--humility, meek will inherit, God looketh on the heart--and the idea that wealth is an indicator of righteousness.

[Rebel]

I have heard that crap for soooooooo long I hate it and it makes me sick !!! I am not a financially well off person in fact I am down right lower middle class !!! I tried that PG and sorry but it doesn't work !! I take all the blame from my spouse that tells me if you just give it a few more months it will all work out , yea while I continue to go down the tubes financially . People in church always look at our family like yea what sins have you been committing ??? You are broke, you must not pay tithing !!! It's stupid and has no place in the church !!

[Newme]

The answer to that question may not be cut & dry, but rather a bit like the placebo effect.
I came across a guy who - believe it or not - suckered people into giving him money by explaining the law of attraction- the more you give, the more you get back. I believe there's some truth in that. However, I also believe in a type of karma "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword," "what comes around goes around."

And I believe that the greatest commandments are to love God, others & self. Tithing is supposed to go to the poor - at least 1/3 & that's the "lower law." It's in the scriptures (Deut. 14:28-29) TBMs carry around but it's ignored by leaders and thus ignored by TBMs.

If there is a day of reconciliation, I believe we will ask ourselves, "Because I have been given much I too must give...did I love in every way I could, including being sure my tithes went to lift burdens of the poor?" "Or did I greedily look for more pride even after being blessed, by ignoring the poor, & greatest commandmen, in favor of pleasing others (church)?"

[document]

When I was in college I got into Max Weber's writings. One in particular fascinated me, "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". In there, he talks at length about the development of modern capitalism naturally growing out of the Protestant work ethic, where labor and work is seen as a sign of spirituality and righteousness. As capitalism becomes more firmly rooted in the ideology of a people, the results of capitalism can also be seen as a sign of righteousness. The more rich you are, the more that you work, and thus the more righteous you are.

I read it again a year or so ago and couldn't stop thinking about Mormonism. He develops this hyper-spiritual-capitalism brilliantly and explains its roots. This concept was entirely foreign to that of ancient Christianity and was a development specifically in Protestantism in the 17th to 19th centuries. It of course was alive and well established in the United States in the 1820s when Joseph was reading the book of Mormon and codified it. A restoration of the "primitive Church" includes doctrines and cultural practices developed in northern Europe after the Protestant reformation. Interesting.

The prosperity gospel only makes sense if the following conditions are met:

1. Labor is a righteous pursuit
2. Capitalism rewards people upon the quantity of labor put in

The first is a matter of belief, so we cannot say it is true nor false. However, number 2 is clearly false, as some of the most labor intensive jobs are paid very little. Capitalism is the value of your labor based upon how many people can perform the work and are available to do so. Additionally, those with established capital can maintain wealth through investment and not through labor.

[orangganjil]

The book of Job is a fantastic treatise destroying the prosperity gospel. To get the concept one needs to read beyond the two or three verses the LDS Church proof-texts, however. If you read the entire thing, you'll notice that there are two components to the book of Job: a story and a poem smashed in the middle of the story. In the story you get a man who is perfect in following God. He makes no mistakes and is the epitome of someone who should be receiving blessings for his perfect obedience to God. He then has bad things happen to him due to a bet between God and "the satan" (not "Satan" - the word translated as "the satan" means "the accuser" and was a specific role within the court of God - but that's a rabbit hole I won't go down right now), however he doesn't speak ill of God and is recompensed for his obedience with even more than he had before. It is a story that bolsters the idea of the prosperity gospel. There are varying versions of the story in the Babylonian and Canaanite literature, though with different names. Basically, it appears to have been a well-known story of the time.

The book of Job, however, inserts into the middle of the story a set of poems where Job lambasts God for his ill treatment of Job. Job goes on and on, in pretty strong language, telling God that he is basically a chump for doing this to him. The poems are not present in the non-Biblical stories and seem to be an insertion by someone as a powerful means of refuting the prosperity gospel ideas of the time. The poems are basically saying that bad things happen to people even if they are perfectly obedient. Job is a powerful story when seen from this perspective.

If you want to read a really good take on it, read Re-reading Job: Understanding the Ancient World’s Greatest Poem by Michael Austin and published by Greg Kofford Books.

[RubinHighlander]

Yup, this is a big old bogus fallacy that really gets too much fuel at all levels of Mormonism. I experienced the negative side of this when I was working my butt off to meet all my obligations, doing all the TBM things, then lost employment for over a year. We burned through savings and were even dipping into food storage. What little I did make on consulting or unemployment was faithfully tithed. I paid gross for most of my paying years, with the attitude that I would get gross blessings. I did the mental gymnastics to try to see the wisdom of God's testing my faithfulness, but it started turning into bitterness. DW also lost her job and things were looking really grim. Eventually employment came and all was well again. Although I could equate this to a test of faith with eventual blessings it still bothered me in the back of my mind and went up on the shelf.

Then a couple years later came the faith transition and I ran my big experiment, not just with my faith in the church, but with tithing. I paid about 1/2, then a few months later was paying nothing. What curses came? None! In fact I got a raise, then survived a big lay off at work and financially things had never looked better. I equated tithing along with all other perceived blessings or cursings: they simply didn't exist. What I used to equate to blessings or tests or cursings simply became standard old life circumstances. I could live life without all the extra fear mongering, worrying and baggage from the COB. I read studies on prayer and how statistically it changes nothing in the outcome of significant medical issues.

It's easy to link prosperity with righteous living when you live in a prosperous middle and upper class tribe. There were a few that struggled and it was easy to equate their failures with some flaw in their faith or behaviors. I beat my self up when I got divorced and was living on the financial edge for many years, that I had somehow not been righteous enough to deserve a good wife and successful financial life. All that mental BS I went through stirs up a lot of anger. I'm so glad to be out of it!

[redjay]

Ways in which the gospel can improve your prosperity: the gospel teaches resilience, the church can provide a network of people who can help you with advice and counsel (e.g. Brother x advising my son on how to become an accountant). If you are from a lower socioeconomic background church can broaden your horizons, and inspire you as you meet professional people who have the finer things in life. The church advises education, which can be a great source of social mobility. The church teaches restraint and budgeting.

Ways in which the gospel does not improve your prosperity: giving 10% of your income away to a corporation for a golden ticket to the CK

Evidence against tithing - my nevermo next door neighbour. We both work in very similar jobs, our spouses are both professionals working in the public sector. He has far more disposable income than I. IMO reasons such as him delaying children and having half the number i have, not paying tithing, life choices such as buying a home earlier in life and building up considerable equity (according to the prosperity gospel I should be catching the breaks and being inspired and as such I should be outperforming my next door neighbour by some margin). This is not an expression of bitterness as much as an objective observation.


The strictures of social conformity mean that we only ever hear the positive stories (coincidences) in our meetings. No one would feel comfortable getting up and saying - I have paid tithing all my life, yet the last year I haven't worked after being paid off, my house is cramped, I feel like a failure and tithing has not worked. Tithing is a massive exercise in groupthink.

[Corsair]

I have some good friends in my ward who have simply had a string of astonishingly bad luck going back many years. Their financial situation is rickety and their health history contributes to the situation. The husband is in the bishopric and is a veil worker in the nearby temple. His wife is one of the most diligent family history researchers in the stake. They are as faithful as can be. They have a very firm testimony of tithing and priesthood blessings. Teachings of the Prosperity Gospel would be hugely guilt inducing for these dear friends. I love these people dearly and want nothing more than to have their life situation make a turn for the better.

In stark contrast, I'm a big slacker sitting here with a triple espresso having recently received a bit of a financial boost in a recent job change. Despite my "current" temple recommend, tithing is a receding memory for me. I am far more interested in my next dental appointment than my next temple experience.

We have evidence from my heathen lifestyle and my unfortunate friend's faithful lifestyle. Clearly, my reverence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a better indicator of the Prosperity Gospel than any tithing blessings you might hear from an LDS ward. Either that, or confirmation bias is blinding both us of because luck and the Buddhist idea that suffering simply exists is a better explanation than any other.

[DPRoberts]

I truly loathe the Properity Gospel. I identify with those who berated themselves for not getting rich. I also think it will always be a part of Mormonism, no matter what the members think of it. Among the reasons are

1- The Book of Mormon. Prosperity due to righteousness is the up side of the Pride Cycle and a key teaching of the BOM. It is unlikely that the leadership will disavow the BOM.

2- Flattery. One thing I learned from the BOM in my youth was the power of flattery. And the PG is very flattering to those who are well off. Not only are they living comfortably, they are blessed. This reinforces the practice of tithe paying in members who can contribute the most to the Kingdom.

3- Generosity toward the Church. I am reminded of L. Whitney Clayton gosh awful commencement address at BYU. (You should be able to find it on YouTube if you want to see the corporate church at its worst). It was a lovely guilt trip on the students about how grateful they should be for the church-subsidized education they have received, and how they should generously pay the church back in handsome donations should they in the future be in a position to do so. When you believe that God is the church, and your prosperity came from God, you will tend to see your "blessings" as not being entirely yours, but a stewardship from God to further the work. It comes in handy for the church when a temple in Nauvoo does not pencil out as a viable location for temple work, but would be really cool as a symbol to members and a visual draw to potential converts.