Get Your Thoughts and Probing Questions Out of Our Daughters' Panties

[Random]

The title of this thread is the title of a blog post that I found interesting and would like to share.
I have seen posts similar to this on other places on the web. I sincerely hope this idea gets traction and gets under the Church's skin enough that they stop doing it, though I fear it would take several lawsuits (or a class action suit) for them to stop asking penetrating sexual questions to children (under 18).

https://invisiblescubit.wordpress.com/2 ... s-panties/

[MalcolmVillager]

Good post. Great article. The church is messed up on this one! Sam Young is doing good work!

[AllieOop]

The title of this thread is the title of a blog post that I found interesting and would like to share.
I have seen posts similar to this on other places on the web. I sincerely hope this idea gets traction and gets under the Church's skin enough that they stop doing it, though I fear it would take several lawsuits (or a class action suit) for them to stop asking penetrating sexual questions to children (under 18).

https://invisiblescubit.wordpress.com/2 ... s-panties/

Thanks for the link. This is a topic that is really disturbing and I honestly do not understand why these interviews still take place. With all of the lawsuits now against the church and the men who have been charged with sexual abuse (who were leaders), I really cannot believe there hasn't been a directive instructing these to end or at the very least, making sure another adult is present (preferably a parent).

It amazes me the trust that LDS parents give to a Bishop. Where else would they EVER allow an adult male to be alone in a closed door room with their son or daughter, asking them these questions or discussing this topic?

Would they allow this with a school teacher? A coach? NO!

It's really unbelievable that these interviews are still taking place, IMO. And, if my husband were the Bishop, I would not want him to put himself in that position either (alone in a room with a youth asking sexual questions)....same with interviewing a woman alone. I just don't understand this practice within the church.


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[Brent]

As a young man who was handed the "little factory" pamphlet in deacons' quorum I had the endure the "self-abuse" questioning. I never, NEVER even entertained the idea that girls might suffer the same indignity.

Send the link to "The Daily Mail"...they love to report on threads on Reddit and such...

[2bizE]

Worthiness interviews are a made up process of.Mormonism. it is not required nor necessary. It only places our children at risk. Too many bad things happen behind closed doors. Here's a recent example:

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=44935230&nid=148

[Korihor]

I knew that title sounded like Sam Young

[moksha]

You are underestimating the bishops. They studied long and hard to be ordained to the priesthood. They took their vows, one of which was celibacy and the other was chastity!!!

Wait, I have been handed a note. Seems I was thinking about the bishops of another group. Well, at least that group who studied long and took those vows so they would never be tempted to probe where they were not supposed to probe.

Wait, I have been handed another note to say even those with better training are susceptible to sexual misbehavior. Well, that behavior must be caused by the Adversary.

Wait, I have been handed another note. Apparently, sexual behavior is built into the complex animal life on this planet as an instinctual urge. The note ended with the cryptic phrase, "if it can happen it will happen". That sounded both cautionary and cynical at the same time. Darn you, you note passers!

[Emower]

I haven't made many demands in my transition. Not paying tithing was something I felt strongly about. Not wearing garments has been another. But I will not allow my kids to be interviewed without me there. That is a hill I am willing to die on. The inappropriateness aside, I don't want them to think that the church leadership has more authority than we give them. And certainly not more authority than I have as a parent.

[Corsair]

I stil serve in in the Boy Scout organization in my ward. The BSA is strictly adamant on Two Deep Leadership at all times. I do expect that LDS local leadership will quietly and grudgingly acquiese to this arrangement as time goes on.

[Not Buying It]

Its amazing something like this still happens in this day and age. And why does it still happen? Because the Church will continue to do anything it can get away with until it gets called out publicly.

Someday there will be an incident and the Church will get publicly embarrassed for having grown men ask teenage boys and girls sexual questions alone behind closed doors. When that happens, they will deny leaders in the Church were ever instructed to do this, and will claim it was a few local leaders who exercised bad judgment instead of the systematic and pervasive problem it is. Then maybe it will end.

Until that day, I would recommend you do what I do - I have told my children that the Bishop asks questions that are none of his business, and because they are none of his business they don't have to tell him anything they don't want to.

No Church truly lead by Christ would ever allow something like this to happen.

[Red Ryder]

Here's another parenting tip for this situation in the event your kids do go through these interviews.

It's a cultural/doctrinal norm for Mormons to believe in the power of discernment which specifically facilitates the false idea that Bishops can telepathically read your thoughts, your mind, and your internet browsing history!

To debunk this myth you have a few options.

1. Teach your kids to never confess. Unfortunately this inadvertently teaches kids to lie, but the church already does this by putting kids in these awkward interviews. Just ask 9 out of 10 Deacons who tell the Bishop they don't masturbate. Or the missionaries who lie on their number reports to their ZL's. Or the elder's Quorum guys who falsely reports 100% on their home teaching. Or the seminary students who report daily scripture reading so they get credit he church facilitates dishonesty.

2. Teach your kids about Mark Hofmann. If the Prophet can't discern false documents and a fraudulent con man, then the Bishop can't discern your "extra time in the shower thinking about Pamela Anderson".

[Rob4Hope]

This goes further and this makes me as angry as the original. During disciplinary courts, 4 men can sit in judgement for the membership of a woman. I know a woman who was judged in front of 16 men at the stake level! This is not someone I know of through a story, online, or read about. This woman is a friend--a close friend--and she told me this while I was looking in her eyeballs. This is a true story!

They asked her detailed questions about what she did, what she wore, and how the whole thing transpired; how it made her feel--all of it. She was terrified, mortified, and utterly humiliated. But, she went through it because her eternal salvation rested on the action and moving through it.

In hind site she believe it was a room FILLED with "dirty old men." She believes these "men of god" were getting off on her sordid and humiliating story.

I'm glad they were being moved upon (in their pants) by the spirit....because I'm sure, at the expense of this woman who they prostituted and shamed, they got a big thrill.

OOOOOOO....THIS topic brings out ANGER!

PS...Oh crap...rant coming!!!!

Just read another account of a man who went through initiatory. He was a young man, first time through as he was getting ready for his mission. As they were doing the oil and blessing his "loins", the guy doing the blessing grabbed him...apologized, and went on. The guy said nothing about it for decades, because he had no idea it was wrong/right/or what. He realized that he suppressed the memory because "You do NOT TALK about the sacred temple!"

We are programmed to defer to authority, to keep our mouths shut, and to accept what we are told. I've been told, for example, by Bishops that I needed to "shut up and just have faith." ,...and one of the more contemporary messages now is; "[if you leave]...where will you go?" This is exactly what abusive husbands say as they control their battered wife. Its a culture of abuse, and it doesn't just end with children being violated by Bishops: it includes all the way through to the end!

[wtfluff]

I stil serve in in the Boy Scout organization in my ward. The BSA is strictly adamant on Two Deep Leadership at all times. I do expect that LDS local leadership will quietly and grudgingly acquiese to this arrangement as time goes on.

You really think so? How long has the BSA been practicing "Two Deep Leadership" ?

I'm pretty sure Two Deep Leadership has been around for quite some time, and here's my experience: Bishops and their councilors (who all have to complete Two Deep Leadership training) will spend plenty of Saturday's at Scout camp, and do everything in their power to never be alone with a minor scout. Then, Sunday morning, they put on their Priesthood Clone Uniform, and spend plenty of time behind closed doors with minors asking them probing questions. They either don't see any contradiction at all, or they just completely ignore it.

[Brent]

I stil serve in in the Boy Scout organization in my ward. The BSA is strictly adamant on Two Deep Leadership at all times. I do expect that LDS local leadership will quietly and grudgingly acquiese to this arrangement as time goes on.

Not to pile on but there's the way it's supposed to be done and the way it's really done.

Our speed limits work on the principal of "self policing", folks are supposed to go the speed limit but don't--unless there's the chance of getting a ticket. Heck, I was riding around the inter-mountain west a couple of weeks ago and don't think I obeyed the speed limit for more than a few minutes when I spotted potential LEOs.

If my ward isn't practicing 2 deep leadership how do I write that ticket? Who's the enforcing organization? There are zero consequences to NOT having 2 deep.

[Corsair]

I'm pretty sure Two Deep Leadership has been around for quite some time, and here's my experience: Bishops and their councilors (who all have to complete Two Deep Leadership training) will spend plenty of Saturday's at Scout camp, and do everything in their power to never be alone with a minor scout. Then, Sunday morning, they put on their Priesthood Clone Uniform, and spend plenty of time behind closed doors with minors asking them probing questions. They either don't see any contradiction at all, or they just completely ignore it.

If my ward isn't practicing 2 deep leadership how do I write that ticket? Who's the enforcing organization? There are zero consequences to NOT having 2 deep.

I entirely agree with both of you and this is a huge problem. This should have been a mandated policy in the BSA for decades, not only the last 10 years.

Two Deep Leadership won't happen in the bishop's office until it get regularly talked about at stake leadership meetings and bishops and stake presidents are consistently given direction to enforce it. This goes against the accepted culture of a Mormon bishop as a Judge in Israel and he is assumed to be above the weaknesses of mortal men. I know that sober Mormons and apologists will grant that terrible things occur and that men make mistakes. But accepting Two Deep Leadership is an implicit admission that adults make mistakes even when have been Called By God. I don't think they have the organizational humility assert this right now.

This was supposed to be the policy in Primary for quite a long time now. It's often done, but Primary is chronically understaffed because It's honestly quite boring to most adults. We all know the blessings and joy that are supposed to come from teaching Primary. Instead, many adults inherently understand that it makes for a grind at church and it unintentionally isolates you from the rest of the ward. Very few people want to teach Primary and enforcing consistent Two Deep Leadership will increase the strain on ward membership.

[2bizE]

Part of the responsibility of the bishop is to listen to confessions. Maybe we need to adopt the phone booth method like the Catholics do. The confesee confesses and the bishop listens, then replies, but not behind closed doors where pedophile temptations occur.

[Red Ryder]

Part of the responsibility of the bishop is to listen to confessions. Maybe we need to adopt the phone booth method like the Catholics do. The confesee confesses and the bishop listens, then replies, but not behind closed doors where pedophile temptations occur.

Someone could create a website for this.

The Online Bishop for Confessional Purposes.

[StarbucksMom]

So I get what you are all saying about 2 deep leadership. But honestly, I don't think that it would help solve the issue of creepy, inappropriate bishop interviews. I mean, wouldn't it be even worse for 2 GROWN MEN to sit with 1 TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL asking her about whether or not she touches her vagina?

[Not Buying It]

Here's another parenting tip for this situation in the event your kids do go through these interviews.

It's a cultural/doctrinal norm for Mormons to believe in the power of discernment which specifically facilitates the false idea that Bishops can telepathically read your thoughts, your mind, and your internet browsing history!

To debunk this myth you have a few options.

1. Teach your kids to never confess. Unfortunately this inadvertently teaches kids to lie, but the church already does this by putting kids in these awkward interviews. Just ask 9 out of 10 Deacons who tell the Bishop they don't masturbate. Or the missionaries who lie on their number reports to their ZL's. Or the elder's Quorum guys who falsely reports 100% on their home teaching. Or the seminary students who report daily scripture reading so they get credit he church facilitates dishonesty.

2. Teach your kids about Mark Hofmann. If the Prophet can't discern false documents and a fraudulent con man, then the Bishop can't discern your "extra time in the shower thinking about Pamela Anderson".

That's good advice. Reminds me of my last Temple Recommend interview with a member of the stake presidency. I'm on their radar a bit, but not known as a full-blown apostate. As he asked me the questions he stared me down and then paused after each question, trying hard to make me think he was staring deep into my soul and then listening to the whisperings of the Spirit to determine whether I was being honest. I met his gaze and stared back, and after each question we had several uncomfortable seconds of staring each other down. Weird.

He couldn't read my mind, he wasn't examining the depths of my soul, and he doesn't have an invisible spiritual being whispering secrets about me to him - it's just a trick they use to make you think they can read your mind, and sometimes the person they are interviewing cracks under the pressure and blabs about something personal they don't really need to. Don't give in to it. Look them right back in the eye and eventually they will give up and go on to the next question. After his rather rude staring behavior, he signed the Recommend and got all friendly again.

I'm a grown man, though, it would be a lot harder for a young person, especially a young woman, to hold their ground under that staring and uncomfortable silence. Having a position of religious authority sure causes some people to do creepy things.

[Random]

This is a topic that is really disturbing and I honestly do not understand why these interviews still take place.

I am really hoping that every bit of exposure to this new idea (that men should not be doing this) is one step closer to pushing the Church into stopping these probing interviews.