As always, thank you for listening to my whining and sharing your kind words of support and commiseration. It means the world to me.
Guy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:17 am
TestimonyLost....
Most of us can relate. A faith transition is never easy when loved ones are involved. While there are groups like this where you can seek help, often there is no one you can talk to in person who can relate to what you are experiencing. So naturally you feel alone. And it's tough!
I see that you are in Boise. I am as well. If you ever feel like meeting up for a chat over lunch or something, gimme a shout. It always helps to have someone you can talk to who can relate to what you are going through.
I may just have to take you up on that. I’ll PM you sometime.
SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:52 am
TeLo don't feel like you are whinny because you aren't. We are all in this together and this is why we are here. Your wife sounds scared. You've changed the narrative and now she has to rewrite the story to include a new you with a new ending and the church never provided her with the tools to do that. My marriage ended (for other complicated issues) before I got the chance to really work out the problems with the church. What little I did share with TBM DH in regards to my issues with the church sent him into an instant panic mode and he shut down and refused to talk about it. It's been 4 years since my divorce and naturally with hindsight I can see things a lot clearer. I wish now I had got some counseling. This thing was really bigger than any of us and neither of us was equipped to deal with it. Could my marriage have been saved? Maybe or maybe not but getting a 3rd neutral opinion might have helped me/us through this crazy uncharted territory of marital discord. Is your TBM DW up to counseling? NON Mormon counseling! If not, maybe you should go. It might help you get a better perspective on things. I wish I had some profound advise to pass on to you that would be that magic wand to wave and make everything all better but I don't.
We have talked about counseling. After a particularly bad row a month or so ago, she actually said we had to have counseling to even keep talking. We agreed on going to an LDS counselor that wasn’t from LDS Social Services. But things calmed down and we’ve had some more positive talks (in relative terms, of course) more recently, so for now that idea has been set aside. She saw her parents go to counseling for years and years while she was growing up and it never did anything for them so I think that makes her reluctant about the whole thing.
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:39 am
TLDR; take away her church induced fears.
SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:52 am
I wish I had some profound advise to pass on to you that would be that magic wand to wave and make everything all better but I don't.
Sounds pretty profound to me!
Counseling has helped us find the new normal in our mixed faith marriage. I highly recommend it and while it didn't really fix our faith issues, it taught us how to talk openly and honestly through the things that bother us.
I honestly found that
FEAR was driving her inability to cope with my new lack of irreligious attitude. She was quietly anticipating my apostasy induced death spiral driven by Kool-Aid withdrawals, coffee addiction, and prostitution. When two out of three of those events didn't happen, it caused her even more cog dis. So she quietly anticipated drug addiction, porn constipation, and food storage shortages while she honed her funeral potato recipe and picked out a spiritual casket for my testimony. As it turns out, Costco doesn't sell spiritual caskets but they do carry quite a few wonderful selections of
NORMAL underwear which I have chosen to wear most days of the week.
While your problems may feel unsurmountable, it may be as simple as having a conversation with her about how confusing this is for both of you while painting a picture that comforts her and rescues her from church induced fear.
Discuss what change looks like and
REASSURE her that she will always be apart of your life and that you value your marriage.
My wife decided she loves me over the church. She also decided she loves garments over Victoria's Secret but fortunately for me they're not super glued on and I can literally rip them off of her because they are so
POORLY made and it kind of turns her on when I do. But hey, you can't win them all!
However you can fight like hell to make your marriage the best damn marriage that pushes the church into the back corner of the closet behind the suitcases, old shoes, and plastic bag of old garments she hasn't made into rags yet. You just have to be nicer than the big bad fear inducing church that tries to split your marriage over it's silly beliefs and doctrines.
See my response to SeeNoEvil about counseling. As for the fear, I spent most of the Sunday night conversation trying to dig down to see if I could reassure her in anyway. Unfortunately, her fears are legitimate. She’s not worried so much that I’m going to be snorting cocaine off a hooker’s ass but that I’m going to teach our kids things that might lead them away from the church (as one example). It’s tough to reassure her on that kind of stuff because, well, there are likely to be big issues in those areas forever.
Nonny wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:54 am
TestimonyLost wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:03 am
I feel like all my posts on here are so damn whiny. But you folks are all I've got, so here I am.
That is the reason we are here. Isn't this where we all start? Suddenly in a new situation and have no one to discuss it with.
I'm having a rough day. After another tense discussion with my wife last night, I just can't parse the signals. In the past month she's said all of the following (paraphrased, of course, and roughly in chronological order):
And I get it. I've thrown her the curveball of a lifetime for a TBM. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm quite confused and lonely in all this. I have no idea what to do. Part of me feels like I just need to go back to pretending like nothing has changed for a while but the thought of that makes me physically ill (literally).
Anyway, thanks for listening. Any good vibes you can send me are appreciated.
She sounds like a person who likes to have certainly. She wants to know how things will turn out. Well, guess what. No one knows how things turn out. We just keep doing the best we can and things turn out in the direction WE take them, whether patiently or in conflict. I vote for patience. Patience with each other. Neither of you needs to make any sudden moves, these drastic changes she fears so much are not necessary. I will say from my experience, if you take things slow, the crisis stage will pass, in due time.
I like the counseling suggestion, mainly because it may help you learn new communication patterns, and having an objective person there to clarify and rephrase, etc. It doesn't even have to be a non-Mormon therapist, as long as the therapist doesn't have an agenda (LDSFS). A non-Mormon therapist might be too much for your wife to accept at this point. (Does anyone know if Lisa Butterworth is a new counselor in the Boise area?) Your wife needs someone to talk to as well, someone objective and understanding.
I wish you peace in finding your way.
Thanks for the reassurance about the whining. I keep needing to remind myself that I only came clean to my wife three months ago which is pretty fresh. In my mind, I see the full nearly decade-long personal struggle so it feels like it’s been going on FOREVER.
She does love certainty. To be fair, we both are. We’re what you’d describe as extremely risk averse people. I am curious what you mean by, “Neither of you needs to make any sudden moves, these drastic changes she fears so much are not necessary.” To my very TBM wife, any change in this area is drastic. How are drastic changes avoidable?
Linked wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:04 pm
Your wife seems very concerned about any changes you are going to make.
I'm going to share my story with you so you know you are not alone, and maybe you can learn from my mistakes. I'm married to a TBM wife too and she has similar feelings. My DW has left an open-ended ultimatum of divorce depending on what changes I make. She doesn't know what will cause her to leave me. So I can't change anything without a real possibility of divorce. It is paralyzing. But like you, shoving it all back into a bottle makes me sick, and it just isn't an option. I have made some minor changes (I take off my garment top in the afternoons cause it is hot, I don't worry about sabbath observance, I ignore movie ratings, etc.) and we are still married and my wife is hanging in there, though not happy.
There are some areas that I know would spark a come to Jesus moment in our marriage, like responsible alcohol, that I am curious to try but live without. It is frustrating because I don't even know if I would like it; I just want to test it out a few times and see how it goes. But even trying it out would probably end up in divorce.
What changes are you interested in making?
I’ve kept up with your posts over the past few months, Linked, and we definitely have a lot in common. There’s been no divorce ultimatum but Sunday night in response to my question, “Do you think we can make this work?”, she said, “I
want to stay married to you.” In a sense, that’s reassuring (hey, she wants me!), but in another sense (just because she wants it doesn’t mean she can make it work), it’s one of the saddest things she’s said to me in this whole thing.
As for what I want, I’ve posted other threads about some of the changes we’ve fought over. The only thing I’ve agreed to back down on completely is alcohol. Things like R-rated movies and coffee remain very contentious. She’s agreed to some things in principal like tithing changes and allowing me to step back from church attendance but when it comes to actually implementing even the smallest changes, she freaks out.
Korihor wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:04 pm
Feel free to share any and all - this a whine-judgement free zone.
It's hard. really hard. Things are a changing and the one thing in life that was never supposed to change (the church) is changing.
State a few changes you'd like to initiate: garments, "scripture study", weekly attendance, callings, coffee, etc- and start with those. I might suggest 2 or 3 relatively benign changes to start with ease into things. THe first step is always the hardest, it should get easy to implement more changes with time.
Unfortunately, the stories we hear on reddit exmo about a spouse doing an 180 overnight are usually rather rare or were an overnight success several years in the making.
Keep on truckin', good buddy. Come here and vent as much, as often and as detailed as you desire.
Nohm 6:35
Then Corsair declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever validates with NOM will never go hungry, and whoever blogs with NOM will never be thirsty.
Weeks ago, I tried to start with drinking Coke as a small start but, by her reaction, you might have thought I’d proposed an open marriage. That’s what led to the Sunday night conversation. I want her to be okay with changes as they roll out but perhaps that’s overly optimistic of me. It’s tempting at times to take a page from the Corsair playbook and make changes that I inform her about later. But I haven’t had the balls to do that yet.
Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:06 pm
Sorry you feel this way, that's how I'm feeling these days, hence my spotty posting record. Just when I think the missus is trying to have some empathy, it all comes crashing down. I really thought, really thought, that we had turned a huge corner last week, which I was going to post about, when this morning we fought over my skipping stake priesthood meeting on Sunday. A nasty scrape for which I'm half to blame. All for skipping a meeting. Really? This is my life for the next foreseeable future? That I have to literally fight to stay home and not listen to dry, self-righteous posturing? And because I didn't go to this meeting, the woman I love dearly is convinced I'm going to hell?
Not a good day. So I'm moping and whining with you, if that's any consolation. Thank God for this place; I may not have posted, but I've read this forum twice a day. It's my salvation right now. I feel your pain, bro. I really do.
And if anybody suggests that I've lost the spirit and need to go to church more, you better not live in Canada. I will track you down. And I know it's a big place.
Hang in there, man. I’ve shared in your pain as I’ve read your posts. It’s funny how the believing spouses all seem to have their own different sets of hang-ups. When I skipped Stake Priesthood meeting several weeks ago, she couldn’t have cared less. But propose drinking a Pepsi and suddenly I’m Satan.
Perhaps it would help both of us to remember some of the tender mercies with our TBM spouses (I love stealing that phrase for NOMish purposes). Mine didn’t mind that I skipped that meeting, she hasn’t asked me to attend an endowment session in years, and she doesn’t expect me to renew my temple recommend next month. #tendermercies #blessed
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:41 pm
I don't think you can plan these changes. You have to use satan's silk thread method of one tiny change at a time slowly, slowly, glacially moving towards rational living. The result for me has been non dramatic short and T-shirt wearing on hot Sunday afternoons while my wife runs around in a dress. Nothing said about it at all. First I started wearing polo shirts with slacks, then polo shirts with jeans, then T-shirts with jeans, then VIOLA! T-shirts and shorts! Only took a year or two.
Well my wife did ask for glacially slow. That’s certainly a good example of that! It’s a good reminder to be patient.
w2mz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:05 pm
Sending good vibes. All I can do is commiserate.
I'm 10 years into this path and it hasn't gotten any easier for me, sorry to say.
A while back Red Ryder (I think it was) posted something here on NOM like "I used to be worried that DW and I would get a divorce. Now I worry that we won't." I'm feeling like that more and more as time wears on.
I agree with Mormorrisey too, thank your favorite deity for NOM. I've met some absolutely awesome people from this site. It's so good to check in and feel sane once in a while.
Good luck.
I still want to be married to my wife. I adore her. But I’ll admit that I’ve spent some time lately thinking of what a post-divorce life would look like and trying to convince myself it would be okay. Most of the time, all I can envision is losing my best friend and all of my kids, money, friends, and family. Which is obviously quite bleak.
2bizE wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:29 pm
A thought came to mind tonight. Would it help your wife if she were to see how many people are in faith crisis. You are not alone. Perhaps show here this sight. Say you found a sight that has people trying to figure it out like you. Maybe create a user account that you both share. Ask her to participate jointly with you to help navigate the crisis together...just an idea.
Interesting idea, but it makes me nervous to even think about. I think she gets that a lot of people out there are struggling. I think even the most TBM of TBMs would have to be blind not to see it. But it’s tough for me to imagine showing her some of the stuff on here. She couldn’t believe when I admitted that I still read “anti-Mormon” stuff online (of which NOM would certainly qualify in her mind). She just doesn’t get why I can’t “let it go.”
Newme wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:47 am
TestimonyLost wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:03 am
And I get it. I've thrown her the curveball of a lifetime for a TBM. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm quite confused and lonely in all this. I have no idea what to do. Part of me feels like I just need to go back to pretending like nothing has changed for a while but the thought of that makes me physically ill (literally).
Anyway, thanks for listening. Any good vibes you can send me are appreciated.
I've felt that way too - confused, without any sense of direction and lonely.
That's good that you honestly shared with her how you think and feel.
Maybe you can share more about how you feel - like you did here - how it makes you physically ill to consider going back to pretending.
Also, for me, it's helped to find other ideas to research - (like philosophy, other religions etc) to help me feel a sense of direction and progress.
I hope the best for you and believe things will get better. We're here for you as much as we can be.
She sees the pain it causes me. But she’s feeling a whole lot of pain herself so I think she’s wrapped up in that right now more than worrying about my pain. I don’t know. Maybe that’s unfair of me, but that’s how it feels.
