"It's impossible!"

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Newme
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"It's impossible!"

Post by Newme » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:04 am

I just got a verbal whipping by some generally respected extended family, who are in the medical field and logical in most aspects except religion (Mormonism). Because of my DH, she is well aware that I'm an "apostate" - it doesn't matter that I still go to church, pray, do FHE, keep a journal, do genealogy (though my focus is LIVING decendants), and try to live with integrity. What matters is that I do not blindly believe in all aspects of Mormonism, and that my son serves a Mormon mission soon.

Several people, I pointed out, have offered some nugget of truth - like Carl Jung, Leibniz, Aristotle, Socrates and how Buddha and Jesus had some teachings in common. And none should be trusted as if they were god. As Nephi is quoted, if there's some problem, blame him (he's human) not God - there are some good scriptures but some are distorted ideas. I explained to her that as Joseph Smith suggested, I try to embrace truth wherever it's found - in medical books or scriptures, etc. She said, "That's impossible! You can't just take truths here and there - you'll be left with confusion! Do you think you're smarter than any other person - so that you can find the truths from each of all of the philosophies and religions??!! No, I'm sorry you are not that smart - you cannot do that - it's impossible!" She said that you need to focus and live one.

I replied, "So, if I was raised in Islam, that means I should just keep focused on that and not consider any other truths?" To my surprise, she gave an example of a Buddhist she knew who lived his religion and she respected him for it.

This disagreement has left me feeling shaken - especially since my kids heard it and seem to take their side a bit. We all respect them - they are great people in many ways - educated, experienced, have done a lot of good. But Mormonism is their god - and they refuse to let go of it long enough to consider that maybe, just maybe, it's not the actual highest GOoD.

It's NOT all-or-nothing. That's polarized (bi-polar) thinking. "You are either on the Lord's side or you're not." BS! We are a mix of good and bad. Nobody's 100% on the Lord's side or 100% not. And if God is a God of truth - (not lies) why not embrace truth wherever it's found? To me, turning from truth, just because it's not Mormon-approved, is turning from God.

What do you think? Can you live a good life by finding truth from various sources rather than focusing on one?

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DPRoberts
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by DPRoberts » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:46 am

Yes!
Last edited by DPRoberts on Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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deacon blues
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by deacon blues » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:00 am

History shows that innovators, those who march to a different drummer, are often treated harshly by their tribes. Yet they are the ones who often create the future world views that influence posterity. then new innovators build on their truth. Follow truth, where ever it leads. Your relatives are trying to use the power of the tribe to refute Your truth.

The line "do you think your smarter than everybody else" is such a cop-out/giveaway.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Red Ryder
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:55 am

You still keep a journal?? (((Gasp))) :lol:
Newme wrote:It's NOT all-or-nothing. That's polarized (bi-polar) thinking. "You are either on the Lord's side or you're not." BS! We are a mix of good and bad. Nobody's 100% on the Lord's side or 100% not. And if God is a God of truth - (not lies) why not embrace truth wherever it's found? To me, turning from truth, just because it's not Mormon-approved, is turning from God.
In Mormonism, it is ALL or NOTHING. The church sets up this dynamic and facilitates this way of thinking. Even the language divides. Member/nonmember; active/inactive; true/not true; true church/great abominable church; Jesus/Satan; white leaders/everyone else; men/women; straight/gay; etc.

To alleviate the side effects of this conversation with your kids, I would suggest taking them for a drive and pointing out the beauty and color in the world. See those flowers over there? What if they were all black or white? Point out the natural diversity that exists in the world and ask them to explain why they think it adds to the beauty of earth. Then let them know that ideas, opinions, and truths are similar and can be found in many different places. Explain that God created these things and that it's ok to think differently. He inspires all of his human children, not just his Mormon kids.

Kids easily understand and relate to inclusive ideas while shrugging off exclusive ideas. Teach them to be inclusive and they will one day make the connection that the church is an exclusive church run by a committee of grandpa's. (Hat tip goes to Emower for the grandpa committee.)
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RubinHighlander
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:03 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pez_79eWSWw

"If you are not with me, you are my enemy."

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes, I will do what I must."
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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oliver_denom
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by oliver_denom » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:35 am

Mormonism may have been about finding truth for Joseph Smith, and maybe some of his followers, but after that first generation its always been about obedience to the church. The searching for truth rhetoric, and finding it in all religions, is meant for non-members. We say that stuff to either make ourselves seem tolerant, or to persuade someone to let us "add on" to their existing truths so they'll convert.

But if you're in, then you no longer have any need to search or ask for yourself because you've got a prophet who handles that for you. We may expect someone who is firm in another faith because they'll get a chance to choose the correct religion after death. You however don't have that option. You're only choice is to be the best possible Mormon or cool your heels in a lower kingdom.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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Newme
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Newme » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:09 pm

Thanks guys.
You might not realize how much I appreciate your understanding and support.

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Emower
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Emower » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:01 pm

Jeez, what a nonsensical argument. If you take that to logical extremes it doesnt hold up. The problem is that Mormons do not believe in extremes, unless it is being extremely zealous and illogical.

You can lead a much better life if you are open to other truths. I have felt that. Bear a testimony of it to them. They cant refute a testimony...

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Newme
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Newme » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:25 pm

DPRoberts wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:46 am
Yes.
I also think it's possible to live a good life by embracing truth from multiple sources - maybe even ideal.
It's just that she made me question even something that is so passionate for me.

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Newme
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Newme » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:27 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:00 am
History shows that innovators, those who march to a different drummer, are often treated harshly by their tribes. Yet they are the ones who often create the future world views that influence posterity. then new innovators build on their truth. Follow truth, where ever it leads. Your relatives are trying to use the power of the tribe to refute Your truth.

The line "do you think your smarter than everybody else" is such a cop-out/giveaway.
I appreciate your input - it makes sense now. But when I was caught up in the moment - with this Mormon tribe (including my DH) backing her, it was difficult to see that she was illogically using her tribal allegiance as part of her argument.

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Newme
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Newme » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:31 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:55 am
You still keep a journal?? (((Gasp))) :lol:
Newme wrote:It's NOT all-or-nothing. That's polarized (bi-polar) thinking. "You are either on the Lord's side or you're not." BS! We are a mix of good and bad. Nobody's 100% on the Lord's side or 100% not. And if God is a God of truth - (not lies) why not embrace truth wherever it's found? To me, turning from truth, just because it's not Mormon-approved, is turning from God.
In Mormonism, it is ALL or NOTHING. The church sets up this dynamic and facilitates this way of thinking. Even the language divides. Member/nonmember; active/inactive; true/not true; true church/great abominable church; Jesus/Satan; white leaders/everyone else; men/women; straight/gay; etc.

To alleviate the side effects of this conversation with your kids, I would suggest taking them for a drive and pointing out the beauty and color in the world. See those flowers over there? What if they were all black or white? Point out the natural diversity that exists in the world and ask them to explain why they think it adds to the beauty of earth. Then let them know that ideas, opinions, and truths are similar and can be found in many different places. Explain that God created these things and that it's ok to think differently. He inspires all of his human children, not just his Mormon kids.

Kids easily understand and relate to inclusive ideas while shrugging off exclusive ideas. Teach them to be inclusive and they will one day make the connection that the church is an exclusive church run by a committee of grandpa's. (Hat tip goes to Emower for the grandpa committee.)
I've often contemplated throwing my journals in a fire - so much evidence against me!

That's true! The church is divisive - member/nonmember etc. I'm going to try to keep that in mind and point it out to my kids so we don't fall into that warped way of thinking.

Good idea to help my kids appreciate diversity and the need to not copy the church's direction in excluding people.
RubinHighlander wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:03 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pez_79eWSWw

"If you are not with me, you are my enemy."

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes, I will do what I must."
:lol: Talk about wolf in sheep clothing! Who would've thought they're Siths!
oliver_denom wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:35 am
Mormonism may have been about finding truth for Joseph Smith, and maybe some of his followers, but after that first generation its always been about obedience to the church. The searching for truth rhetoric, and finding it in all religions, is meant for non-members. We say that stuff to either make ourselves seem tolerant, or to persuade someone to let us "add on" to their existing truths so they'll convert.

But if you're in, then you no longer have any need to search or ask for yourself because you've got a prophet who handles that for you. We may expect someone who is firm in another faith because they'll get a chance to choose the correct religion after death. You however don't have that option. You're only choice is to be the best possible Mormon or cool your heels in a lower kingdom.
That sounds insane, but it's how things work in the church.
Image
Emower wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:01 pm
Jeez, what a nonsensical argument. If you take that to logical extremes it doesnt hold up. The problem is that Mormons do not believe in extremes, unless it is being extremely zealous and illogical.

You can lead a much better life if you are open to other truths. I have felt that. Bear a testimony of it to them. They cant refute a testimony...
Yeah, if we aren't supposed to look outside our religion for any truth - that means her medical job was wrong, any traveling to experience other cultures is also wrong. You're right - taken to extreme, it is also kind of evil - even by their own idea that God is a god of truth.

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DPRoberts
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by DPRoberts » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:41 pm

Newme wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:04 am
What do you think? Can you live a good life by finding truth from various sources rather than focusing on one?
I hope you did not find my simple "yes" to be flippant. It was not meant that way, it was meant emphatically. There is a great big beautiful terrible wonderful whole of truth out there that none of us will come anything but infinitesimally close to grasping as a whole. I think you can live a far better life by being open to the truth, whatever the source. It would be nice if Mormonism could actually live by the belief that the gospel encompasses all truth. Unfortunately they vastly overestimate how much truth lies within the church and vastly underestimate how much truth lies without.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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Newme
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Newme » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:16 am

DPRoberts wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:41 pm
Newme wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:04 am
What do you think? Can you live a good life by finding truth from various sources rather than focusing on one?
I hope you did not find my simple "yes" to be flippant. It was not meant that way, it was meant emphatically. There is a great big beautiful terrible wonderful whole of truth out there that none of us will come anything but infinitesimally close to grasping as a whole. I think you can live a far better life by being open to the truth, whatever the source. It would be nice if Mormonism could actually live by the belief that the gospel encompasses all truth. Unfortunately they vastly overestimate how much truth lies within the church and vastly underestimate how much truth lies without.
Yes, I think you're right. The more information, the better ability to make the best decisions, and the better decisions, the better life.
I used to be so much more clueless than I am now. :)

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Ghost
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Ghost » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:46 am

Setting aside the questionable part about having to be smarter than anyone else to learn from different sources, I can see why someone would value a prepackaged program that provides an approach to life rather than trying to construct such a thing from scratch. Especially someone who already has such a program that seems to be working well enough and is busy with other aspects of life and might not have the intellectual interest in digging deep into philosophy.

I've personally found the idea if having to create a system of values intimidating, and I can see how someone wouldn't be motivated to try that. I'm not sure I would if I didn't feel impelled to do so based on a loss of certainty in my previous assumptions. I still hold on to a lot of things that Mormonism taught me that I see as pretty arbitrary, so I guess I can relate. Though I can't relate at this point to the idea of assuming that whatever approach I have chosen is the right one and alternatives are "impossible."

There are definitely quotes from LDS leaders that support finding truth elsewhere, though they assume of course that anything found in this way would be supplemental and compatible with the core of Mormonism (however that might be defined).
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young wrote:“Mormonism,” so-called, embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity. No matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth it belongs to “Mormonism.” The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belong to this Church. As for their morality, many of them are, morally, just as good as we are. All that is good, lovely, and praiseworthy belongs to this Church and Kingdom. . . . I want to say to my friends that we believe in all good. If you can find a truth in heaven, earth or hell, it belongs to our doctrine. We believe it; it is ours; we claim it.

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Dravin
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Dravin » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:25 pm

Newme wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:04 am
Several people, I pointed out, have offered some nugget of truth - like Carl Jung, Leibniz, Aristotle, Socrates and how Buddha and Jesus had some teachings in common. And none should be trusted as if they were god. As Nephi is quoted, if there's some problem, blame him (he's human) not God - there are some good scriptures but some are distorted ideas. I explained to her that as Joseph Smith suggested, I try to embrace truth wherever it's found - in medical books or scriptures, etc. She said, "That's impossible! You can't just take truths here and there - you'll be left with confusion! Do you think you're smarter than any other person - so that you can find the truths from each of all of the philosophies and religions??!! No, I'm sorry you are not that smart - you cannot do that - it's impossible!" She said that you need to focus and live one.
Um... if I'm incapable of discerning truth then how do I focus and live one truth? To say, "I will live the truth of Mormonism." requires that I make the determination that there is truth in Mormonism to be lived and focused on. Even within Mormonism you still have the problem, do I focus and live Brigham Young's teachings on marriage? Or Gordon Hinkley's? The idea of truth is a sticky philosophical issue, but it's not resolved by declaring, "You gotta pick one and stick with it."
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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Newme
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Newme » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:27 pm

Ghost wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:46 am
Setting aside the questionable part about having to be smarter than anyone else to learn from different sources, I can see why someone would value a prepackaged program that provides an approach to life rather than trying to construct such a thing from scratch. Especially someone who already has such a program that seems to be working well enough and is busy with other aspects of life and might not have the intellectual interest in digging deep into philosophy.

I've personally found the idea if having to create a system of values intimidating, and I can see how someone wouldn't be motivated to try that. I'm not sure I would if I didn't feel impelled to do so based on a loss of certainty in my previous assumptions. I still hold on to a lot of things that Mormonism taught me that I see as pretty arbitrary, so I guess I can relate. Though I can't relate at this point to the idea of assuming that whatever approach I have chosen is the right one and alternatives are "impossible."

There are definitely quotes from LDS leaders that support finding truth elsewhere, though they assume of course that anything found in this way would be supplemental and compatible with the core of Mormonism (however that might be defined).
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young wrote:“Mormonism,” so-called, embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity. No matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth it belongs to “Mormonism.” The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belong to this Church. As for their morality, many of them are, morally, just as good as we are. All that is good, lovely, and praiseworthy belongs to this Church and Kingdom. . . . I want to say to my friends that we believe in all good. If you can find a truth in heaven, earth or hell, it belongs to our doctrine. We believe it; it is ours; we claim it.
Thank you, Ghost. Your response & that quote moved me.
I appreciate the help in forgiving by understanding where another may be coming from.
No doubt it can feel intimidating going from a belief system that has all of the answers & direction plus some... to questioning & doubting everything.
And in a strange way, her clinging with blinders on to Mormonism reminds me to be careful not to cling to other ideologies, which I think I may have. It seems like the ideal process is filled with discovering, grasping, clinging, letting go (& repeating).

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Newme
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Newme » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:34 pm

Dravin wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:25 pm
Newme wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:04 am
Several people, I pointed out, have offered some nugget of truth - like Carl Jung, Leibniz, Aristotle, Socrates and how Buddha and Jesus had some teachings in common. And none should be trusted as if they were god. As Nephi is quoted, if there's some problem, blame him (he's human) not God - there are some good scriptures but some are distorted ideas. I explained to her that as Joseph Smith suggested, I try to embrace truth wherever it's found - in medical books or scriptures, etc. She said, "That's impossible! You can't just take truths here and there - you'll be left with confusion! Do you think you're smarter than any other person - so that you can find the truths from each of all of the philosophies and religions??!! No, I'm sorry you are not that smart - you cannot do that - it's impossible!" She said that you need to focus and live one.
Um... if I'm incapable of discerning truth then how do I focus and live one truth? To say, "I will live the truth of Mormonism." requires that I make the determination that there is truth in Mormonism to be lived and focused on. Even within Mormonism you still have the problem, do I focus and live Brigham Young's teachings on marriage? Or Gordon Hinkley's? The idea of truth is a sticky philosophical issue, but it's not resolved by declaring, "You gotta pick one and stick with it."
Good point! Even within Mormonism, there is a lot of conflicting ideas to choose from.
No 2 people see everything the same way. Maybe this natural human condition is why church leaders are vigilant about trying to get everyone thinking the same - vain/repetitive prayers, rituals & testimonies, general conferences, strict adherence to "church-approved" material, no outside group gatherings to discuss the church, etc.

Now that I think about it, they do an amazing job at mind-control for the masses.

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NOMinally Mormon
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by NOMinally Mormon » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:56 pm

Um, this lady seems extreme even by mormon standards. She needs to reread the 13th article of faith.

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Newme
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Newme » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:29 pm

NOMinally Mormon wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:56 pm
Um, this lady seems extreme even by mormon standards. She needs to reread the 13th article of faith.
Yeah - it definitely wasn't her best shining moment. I think if I didn't have support here, I may have taken it more to heart, so thanks again.

I think for her, the church is a major source of pride (often subtly brags about how she has brought so many people into the church - & still counting!). Also, she thinks in terms of all-or-nothing.
I think her sister may be a bit NOMish, and she also mentioned having lots of questions but she just puts them aside to be answered in the next life. Possibly, if she were to question them more seriously, her sense of pride could turn to shame & maybe that would be too much for her.

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Random
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Re: "It's impossible!"

Post by Random » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:49 pm

Newme wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:04 am
I just got a verbal whipping by some generally respected extended family, who are in the medical field and logical in most aspects except religion (Mormonism). . . .

Several people, I pointed out, have offered some nugget of truth - like Carl Jung, Leibniz, Aristotle, Socrates and how Buddha and Jesus had some teachings in common. And none should be trusted as if they were god. As Nephi is quoted, if there's some problem, blame him (he's human) not God - there are some good scriptures but some are distorted ideas. I explained to her that as Joseph Smith suggested, I try to embrace truth wherever it's found - in medical books or scriptures, etc. She said, "That's impossible! You can't just take truths here and there - you'll be left with confusion! Do you think you're smarter than any other person - so that you can find the truths from each of all of the philosophies and religions??!! No, I'm sorry you are not that smart - you cannot do that - it's impossible!" She said that you need to focus and live one.
. . .

What do you think? Can you live a good life by finding truth from various sources rather than focusing on one?
Wow!

Your post reminds me of Denver's Sunstone talk. I haven't read the whole thing, but what I've read thus far says that Mormons don't have a corner on truth.
I have been greatly impressed with Hinduism. There is a significant overlap in beliefs shared by Mormons and Hindus. But it would be almost impossible to have the average Mormon-in-the-pew acknowledge such overlapping beliefs. Many Mormons won't investigate to discover truth if it isn't correlated and approved by the top leaders.
page 13
There may be important potential Hindu contributions on the topic of the eternal nature of man's existence that could be of worth to Mormons—if we did not regard them as deluded pagans. Rather than invite a Hindu over to listen to our family home evening lesson, we may obtain greater benefit by asking them over to teach us a lesson.
ibid
So are the Buddhists in possession of truths Mormons ought to consider acquiring? Do they have sacred texts they have guarded for generations that will be brought to the attention of Mormons only if we show enough respect and restraint so that their owners share their pearls with us? Does our swine-like arrogance and conceit34 prevent them from casting their most valuable pearls our way?

34 is a footnote reference to "pearls before swine" in the NT and BoM
page 11
Last edited by Random on Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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