Venting

[Linked]

I am frustrated today and need to vent. My life is owned by a church I don't believe in. My marriage sucks. Those close to me in the church act like the extreme social pressure to conform is not coercion, and that I can freely choose to life an authentic life even though a brief exploration of what is actually authentic for me would likely lead to divorce and distance in almost all the relationships that are important to me.

I am so angry at the church today. (Apologies to those who find this off-putting, I hope you can see through the negativity for the real reasons). I embrace curiosity, openness, honesty, and transparency. If embraced by all I think those qualities would transform this world into a better place. People and communities would grow like a well fertilized garden. From where I sit the church is the antithesis of those qualities. All it seems to do is make fertilizer (BS). Curiosity is only allowed within the prescribed bounds, which aren't defined very well because that would look bad. Every public communication has to be scrutinized to see where they are using weasel words so they can be doing the opposite of what they are saying while still technically not lying*. There is very little transparency about how any decisions are made at high levels, who knows if decisions are made because they met with God himself and he told them what to do, or if they are following the direction suggested by their latest survey results? The church acts like a shady MLM, with loads of lawyers to make sure they stay legal in their claims, but leave plenty of room to believe the illegal claims and spin, spin, spin everything to fit their narrative. Take things out of context, leave out pertinent information, focus on what supports what you want and suppress what doesn't.

But then there are good people who I care about who fully support the church and do actual good things in it's name. They also believe the greatest good they can do in the world is make more people mormon. And I reject their greatest good, and I think it is bad. Me being authentic throws that in their faces. So how can we stay close without me continuing to toe the line church-wise? What a freaking mess.

And then there is my marriage. It feels like my wife and I haven't really connected in years. Every night we go to bed I am painfully aware that she turns her back on me and would never touch me again if I didn't initiate contact (sexually or in any affectionate manner, i.e. cuddling, a touch on the shoulder, holding hands). My reaction to her avoiding reaching out to me is to try to remember to avoid reaching out and touching her because I don't want to force her to deal with what she doesn't want (and I am mad at her for not wanting me); no hand on her shoulder, no cuddling, no hugs. I have to consciously stop myself from reaching out to her because I am an affectionate person. And as an affectionate person it is painful for me to not have affection from my wife. I fall asleep sad and angry, then I wake up sad and angry to see this woman who effectively hates living with me lying there beside me. I suggest counseling and she refuses because "we already tried that and nothing changed". I wonder if she would be willing to put more into our relationship if the church stuff wasn't hanging over it, but with my disaffection she doesn't seem to have any desire to be close to me. She is still very good about the stuff that makes stay at home moms feel objectified, but she won't make a real connection with me. And I can't blame it all on her. All she has ever wanted in our marriage is for me to want to just be with her and the kids, but I love getting together with my family, my friends, and even her family. She feels like I have never really wanted to be with her. I want to say that is not true, but I can see how she feels that way. I have made quicker friends with other people than with her. When we get together with other people I spend my time talking with those people. (Although, isn't that what you are supposed to do when you hang out with people? Shouldn't she be the one to ALSO be talking to those other people, instead of me talking less with them?) I fear I may have married a checklist instead of a person, and that led to me treating her like a second class citizen in her own home.

I had a week away from the wife and kids around the same time as 20/20hind. It was great to not have those feelings of frustration as I went to sleep and woke up. It was really nice to be able to do whatever I wanted and not worry too much about how it would affect my relationship with my wife. Honestly, it was soooooo nice to not have kids attack me and demand all my attention every moment I am home. They are good kids and I am very proud of them, but I can't ever get anything done.

So for the last week I haven't been able to stop thinking about the possibility of putting some distance between my wife and I. Maybe I could just sleep in the guestroom and move my clothes in there. Then she wouldn't have to worry about me touching her, and I wouldn't have to worry about the sadness in bed. Though I'm sure sleeping alone will bring similar sadness for both of us because our marriage is so crappy that we can't even sleep in the same bed. And I don't want to put any more into a relationship if it is only going to get worse. Maybe it's time to look into divorce. I want to be the guy who wants and demands joint custody and split time with the kids 50/50. But I don't know if I could do it. Maybe the 50% off time would give me the space to get stuff done so I can be good dad for the 50% on time. I also don't know what my wife would fight for. If it comes to Wednesday nights and every other weekend have I failed as a human being? And this is going to kill any hopes for a nice lifestyle. But I could get a motorcycle.



*I'm an engineer, I design stuff. There is a methodology called Design for Manufacturability, where you scrutinize a design for issues that could lead to difficulty in manufacturing or manufacturing mistakes. One thing that causes manufacturing mistakes is when something looks symmetric, but isn't quite symmetric. I accidentally broke this design criteria once, making a 6 inch part 0.100 inches out of symmetry, and about half of the parts were made wrong. It seems like the church aims for almost symmetric so people can take both sides of an issue and still feel the church agrees with them. There are dozens of issues like this and I hate it. The church still practicing polygamy spiritually, acceptance of LGBTQ+, Second Coming rhetoric, etc.

[Enough]

Linked,

All I can say is that I totally understand where you are coming from. I could've written this post. And..., I'm so sorry. I don't have any answers or suggestions. Much of the time, I feel like this is a No-Win Situation. No matter what avenue you (or I) pursue.... there will be fall-out. How much??? I guess that is TBD.

[Linked]

Linked,

All I can say is that I totally understand where you are coming from. I could've written this post. And..., I'm so sorry. I don't have any answers or suggestions. Much of the time, I feel like this is a No-Win Situation. No matter what avenue you (or I) pursue.... there will be fall-out. How much??? I guess that is TBD.

Thanks Enough. I appreciate your comments. Definitely a no-win situation, or at least a "heavy casualties for everyone no matter what you do" situation.

[Korihor]

Bro, that sucks. Like many others here, we can empathize with your situation.

Is marriage counseling an option? IIRC, Mrs Linked isn't too receptive to hearing 'Your Anti Lies". But would she be able to listen/read something about making it work in a mixed faith marriage? Mormon Stories podcast has some good episodes about making it work in a mixed faith relationship. For me, it reminded me that all is not lost. I can only hope if you came to her and said "Honey, I know things are rough between us. I really want to improve our relationship. This podcast talks about how to make a marriage work in a situation like ours. Other people have been down this path. Can we at least listen to it together and see if it can help us?"

Everything I know about relationships (which isn't much) is that coming to her in a tone of sincerity and vulnerability would like result in the other being receptive.

Facts will never change another's opinion. Only emotions can cause people to change or open up. I know it's been rough for you the past year+. It's been rough on her as well, I'm sure. Don't give up hope just yet. It's really really really to take that first step and expose your inner self.

Mrs Kori left last Wednesday and I've been solo ever since. I know what you mean about enjoying some peace and quiet.

We're here for you.

[Red Ryder]

I wrote this same post ten years ago after my disaffection and things weren't going very well in very similar circumstances. You're at a crossroads here, Linked!

Take some time and seriously consider what divorce will look like for you. Go talk to an attorney. Find out what your future obligations will look like financially. What joint custody arrangements will look like. Explore every avenue of what a divorce will look like.

Too many of us here give lip service in the name of empathy and understanding, knowing exactly how you feel, knowing what the next 10 years of your life will be like to a T, knowing and feeling the hopelessness of our mixed faith wannabee marriages.

So go spend the time and investigate what divorce will look like for YOU. Don't worry about how the kids and the wife will survive post divorce. Look deep within your soul and ask "How will I survive a divorce?"

If you truly think your marriage is over and you can't go on, then pursue a divorce.

If you honestly don't want to get divorced then stop complaining about how bad your marriage is and start doing something about it. If your wife won't go to counseling and refuses to work like hell along side you to make your marriage better than discuss the details of the divorce information you gathered above. Let her know your at your breaking point and that you've been researching and considering divorce. If that doesn't get her attention than make a decision accordingly.

If you both decide your marriage is salvageable then find a therapist who can help. I highly recommend a therapist who understands the LDS element so that your not spending all of your time and money explaining to the therapist what it means to be mormon. Avoid LDS family services at all costs. They will keep your bishop in the loop especially if the church is paying for it. Find an LDS therapist who will not bring scriptures or commandment checklists into therapy and will be a therapist first and LDS second.

Emotional Focused Therapy really helped us learn to connect again despite our differences. You can fix your marriage but you have to work like hell to do it.

Divorce is also a valid option and could be the path to a happier life in the long run.

[Stig]

Add me to the list of people who could have written the opening post. It's a terrible place to be living your life; perpetual limbo.

[Nonny]

I feel sad hearing your struggles. I hate that the church and their belief system too often comes between family members.

Sometimes divorce is the best answer. I second what RR said though, you really need to fight if you want to save your marriage. In addition to what RR said, I think you shouldn't make such a serious decision based on assumptions. Like assuming what your wife thinks about this or that, especially the intimacy piece that is hurting you so much right now. You must find out why she is turning away from you instead of just guessing. There is a book and website you might read through - His Need Her Needs - which admittedly has a Christian focus, but you might have totally different intimacy needs than your wife and that is one reason you don't connect. Your change in belief might not be the only problem with your marriage, but it kicked the props out from under an already unstable relationship.

Just my thoughts. I do wish the best for you in facing this difficult decision.

[Linked]

Bro, that sucks. Like many others here, we can empathize with your situation.

Is marriage counseling an option? IIRC, Mrs Linked isn't too receptive to hearing 'Your Anti Lies". But would she be able to listen/read something about making it work in a mixed faith marriage? Mormon Stories podcast has some good episodes about making it work in a mixed faith relationship. For me, it reminded me that all is not lost. I can only hope if you came to her and said "Honey, I know things are rough between us. I really want to improve our relationship. This podcast talks about how to make a marriage work in a situation like ours. Other people have been down this path. Can we at least listen to it together and see if it can help us?"

Everything I know about relationships (which isn't much) is that coming to her in a tone of sincerity and vulnerability would like result in the other being receptive.

Facts will never change another's opinion. Only emotions can cause people to change or open up. I know it's been rough for you the past year+. It's been rough on her as well, I'm sure. Don't give up hope just yet. It's really really really to take that first step and expose your inner self.

Mrs Kori left last Wednesday and I've been solo ever since. I know what you mean about enjoying some peace and quiet.

We're here for you.

Thanks Kori. My wife is anti-counseling, but she might be open to listening to podcasts. she listened to some of the Jennifer Finlayson-Fife podcasts with me and didn't seem to mind.

I've been taking the track that I want us to be happy individually and as a couple for the past couple years, but she blows that off. I have no idea what I could do that would help her to be happier, outside of a faith re-ignition. I think I have been doing my fair share on housework and devoting time to family. I have actively worked to do more over the past couple years. Though her underlying feeling that I would rather be with other people than with her might undo any progress toward a happy relationship.

I feel like I am very sincere with her, but I could be more vulnerable. My personality and my defense mechanism in highly emotional situations is to get anthropological and distance my inner self from the situation. It's like I am watching the situation from a distance, and when things get unbelievably sad I start to laugh at how crazy-bad the situation is. She doesn't like that.

Enjoy your time to yourself!

I wrote this same post ten years ago after my disaffection and things weren't going very well in very similar circumstances. You're at a crossroads here, Linked!

Take some time and seriously consider what divorce will look like for you. Go talk to an attorney. Find out what your future obligations will look like financially. What joint custody arrangements will look like. Explore every avenue of what a divorce will look like.

Too many of us here give lip service in the name of empathy and understanding, knowing exactly how you feel, knowing what the next 10 years of your life will be like to a T, knowing and feeling the hopelessness of our mixed faith wannabee marriages.

So go spend the time and investigate what divorce will look like for YOU. Don't worry about how the kids and the wife will survive post divorce. Look deep within your soul and ask "How will I survive a divorce?"

If you truly think your marriage is over and you can't go on, then pursue a divorce.

If you honestly don't want to get divorced then stop complaining about how bad your marriage is and start doing something about it. If your wife won't go to counseling and refuses to work like hell along side you to make your marriage better than discuss the details of the divorce information you gathered above. Let her know your at your breaking point and that you've been researching and considering divorce. If that doesn't get her attention than make a decision accordingly.

If you both decide your marriage is salvageable then find a therapist who can help. I highly recommend a therapist who understands the LDS element so that your not spending all of your time and money explaining to the therapist what it means to be mormon. Avoid LDS family services at all costs. They will keep your bishop in the loop especially if the church is paying for it. Find an LDS therapist who will not bring scriptures or commandment checklists into therapy and will be a therapist first and LDS second.

Emotional Focused Therapy really helped us learn to connect again despite our differences. You can fix your marriage but you have to work like hell to do it.

Divorce is also a valid option and could be the path to a happier life in the long run.

Thanks RR, I appreciate the advice and knowing I'm not alone.

Divorce for me would improve my situation. I would be free to explore the new world I discovered a few years ago; not exploring it has been emotionally difficult. I could develop a taste for coffee, and unwind with moderate alcohol if I want to. I could be open to the world about who I am. My relationship with my wife has not been rewarding for me (or her) for years. Since before my issues with the church. I think getting out of the relationship would be addition by subtraction. I think the reduction of time with my kids would improve the quality when we are together, at least I hope (am I a bad person for being this way? I think it is a natural reaction to little kids for most people. Maybe not...). My wife and I both have relatively high paying careers and financially things would be worse, but not disastrous. I worry about where I would live, but I'm guessing that would take an afternoon or two to figure out. I would have more time to do stuff I am interested in. I would have time to develop more rewarding relationships (I don't mean new love interests, just relationships with friends/family that are more rewarding than the one with my wife).

Divorce for my wife might not improve her situation. And I don't want to force that on her.

Divorce for my kids would be super sad. Just heartbreaking. But, I think they would get over it just fine, and would still have plenty of time and love from both parents. They would have to go to day care, which my older son has requested in the past, much to my wife's chagrin.

I need to talk with someone like a lawyer about the ins and outs of finances and parental time. Or at least someone familiar with the process.

As for fighting for our marriage, I don't have the energy right now. But that could change if there were some hope that it is worth fighting for.

Add me to the list of people who could have written the opening post. It's a terrible place to be living your life; perpetual limbo.

Thanks Stig. Good analogy, totally limbo.

I feel sad hearing your struggles. I hate that the church and their belief system too often comes between family members.

Sometimes divorce is the best answer. I second what RR said though, you really need to fight if you want to save your marriage. In addition to what RR said, I think you shouldn't make such a serious decision based on assumptions. Like assuming what your wife thinks about this or that, especially the intimacy piece that is hurting you so much right now. You must find out why she is turning away from you instead of just guessing. There is a book and website you might read through - His Need Her Needs - which admittedly has a Christian focus, but you might have totally different intimacy needs than your wife and that is one reason you don't connect. Your change in belief might not be the only problem with your marriage, but it kicked the props out from under an already unstable relationship.

Just my thoughts. I do wish the best for you in facing this difficult decision.

Thanks Nonny. I will have to check out that book. We definitely have different intimacy needs, it is part of why our relationship hasn't been working well for years. The change in belief just made it so our relationship was not worth working on for my wife. I try to talk to my wife about stuff like that but she just gets frustrated that it's a problem and clams up.

[Linked]

Thank you all for your support and helping me talk through all this. The frustration and despair that has been building in my heart is dissipating. I think I need to have a talk with DW, but maybe we can find some hope in a future together.

[Just This Guy]

Thanks Kori. My wife is anti-counseling, but she might be open to listening to podcasts. she listened to some of the Jennifer Finlayson-Fife podcasts with me and didn't seem to mind.

I've been taking the track that I want us to be happy individually and as a couple for the past couple years, but she blows that off. I have no idea what I could do that would help her to be happier, outside of a faith re-ignition. I think I have been doing my fair share on housework and devoting time to family. I have actively worked to do more over the past couple years. Though her underlying feeling that I would rather be with other people than with her might undo any progress toward a happy relationship.

I feel like I am very sincere with her, but I could be more vulnerable. My personality and my defense mechanism in highly emotional situations is to get anthropological and distance my inner self from the situation. It's like I am watching the situation from a distance, and when things get unbelievably sad I start to laugh at how crazy-bad the situation is. She doesn't like that.

Maybe one question that needs to asked is what are you both wanting out on this marriage? What are each of your requirements and what are you both willing do so to make it happen? This needs to be discussed with a completely involved 3rd party as a mediator. If your wife is unwilling to do counseling, then how does she suggest that a mutually agreeable solution be found? If the whole thing is going to be completely one-sided, then you have you answer there and know that it isn't going to work.

[MerrieMiss]

I'm sorry to hear this. A couple weeks ago I sat in sacrament meeting contemplating divorce. Before I had always been against it and frightened of the thought. But sometimes you hit a wall and all I could think about what what kind of job I would get and where I could afford to live. It's unfortunate for the women on this side of a faith crisis that the divorce really favors the TBM husband. It's been said before, and you hinted at it - divorce is not as great an option for your TBM wife.

I think I've mentioned it, but your wife's actions seem a lot like actions I might make. I don't know the reasons for why she behaves the way she does, but for me, I was raised in a dysfunctional home and wasn't able to admit that to myself until after I had kids of my own. I have a lot of behaviors and issues that I don't know I'll ever get over, but I'm aware of them now, and my main goal is not passing them onto my kids. Counseling was very good about that. I wonder if she has some big issues she either can't admit are there or doesn't want to. Emotionally shutting down has always been my favorite coping mechanism and as my therapist pointed out, it's a fine mechanism for a child who is in a situation where they have no control - it's isn't a good one for an adult.

My wife is anti-counseling, but she might be open to listening to podcasts. she listened to some of the Jennifer Finlayson-Fife podcasts with me and didn't seem to mind.

I was going to ask if she was against counseling, because I was vehemently opposed. I even decided BKP was my favorite apostle because he hated it too (I am not proud to admit this). I finally got help when I hit a dead end and didn't know what else to do. Even then, it took me months of going weekly to open up about just a few of the issues I had. The therapist mentioned I was about as tight lipped as she had ever seen, all while I thought I was laying bare my soul. So it is possible for change to take place. I can't say how likely, but it happens.

I don't know how you change her mind about counseling. I don't know if bringing up the possibility of divorce would help nudge her in the right direction. Something that I think is very useful, but is a slower approach, is engaging in meaningful literary or cinematic experiences. Seeing other people live though difficult things can open our minds and build empathy. Something that very slowly changed my mind about different church related things was listening to some of the more "dull" Mormon Stories podcasts (the earlier ones) - just listening to the stories and experiences different people had. I also read Baring Witness not too long ago. Some very orthodox mormons would find it offensive, but I thought it interesting to see all the different lives and difficulties of Mormon women, unlike the representation of Mormon womanhood that's sold at church every Sunday.

[Emower]

Man I'm sorry Linked. We all do a lot of lip service here, and sometimes its needed. I can understand you as well, but I am going to play devils advocate here and recommend that you fight a little harder. Specifically that you communicate more. But know that I respect you and I have no real world idea of how hard you have fought up to this point. I just want to offer more than support, but know that you have my support.

All she has ever wanted in our marriage is for me to want to just be with her and the kids,

She feels like I have never really wanted to be with her. I want to say that is not true, but I can see how she feels that way.

If you can see how she feels that way, maybe that is something that needs to be addressed really honestly and frankly before you go deciding to investigate divorce. It sounds like this goes possibly deeper than church stuff at this point.

Make a list of what you are willing to sacrifice for your marriage the way it is now, and maybe a list of things that you would sacrifice for the ideal marriage you could imagine. See if she can make the same lists. Compare, see if there are things in common.

My wife read a book called "crucial conversations," and she would recommend it to everyone going through a transition. Its all about having a more effective communication strategy for important subjects. It is written for the business/corporate world, but the relationship applications are clear.

They are good kids and I am very proud of them, but I can't ever get anything done.

I have lowered my expectations of getting things done. My son worships me, and that is enough right now.

It just sounds like communication had failed spectacularly. It would be a shame if you got a divorce that could have been prevented through talking, and you both would have wanted to prevent it. Now, if after talking successfully you still want to go through with it, and she wants to go through it, that is a different story. I cant imagine her saying, "No, I would prefer for us to continue in this crappy relationship for time and all eternity." Maybe she would, I dont know, but you need to at least get that out of her. Or maybe, after communicating, she could be willing to give up the thought of being with you in the temple if you would not bring beer home. Or that sort of thing.

But please, know that I am coming from a place where I have never actively fought with my wife. All the Phoenix NOM's were shocked when I told them that I and DW had never really had an argument. I think its because we are compatible, but also because I have been very forthright with my feelings and there is nothing really lurking under the surface. She has not been so good at that, but the crucial conversations book has helped.
Maybe I will try to get her on here to give the other side of the coin. She is still very TBM.

[alas]

Reading through everything on this thread, and it kind of hit me how common this feeling is, and how so many of us go through the same issue just a little bit differently.

Yeah, been there done that.

You have a real good clue as to how to fix your marriage. You know your wife feels that you don't like spending time with her, but you seem baffled about what that means and what you can do about it.

There are different things that make people feel like the other person loves them. There are a couple of books out on this and the call the different ways we feel loved love languages. Everyone has different love languages, for example, some women need to hear the sweet words, while other like a gift of flowers or some other token of your love. Now, I read a couple of these books and both seemed to leave one love language out. That one was what I call quality time. Your wife's primary way of feeling loved is spending time together, not gifts or love words or service.

I suspect your love language is physical touch, because that is what feels like it is hurting most in what you wrote.

You can go find one of the books on love languages if you like, but the idea is very simple. Know your spouse's love language and speak to her in the language she understands, even if it is not your first language.

So you know that your wife wants more time with you. So, ask her what she would like to do together and then arrange that activity. Do this weekly or more often until she starts feeling like you really do love her.

As for the physical touch thing. Have you ASKED her if she dislikes you touching her, .....or just assumed that because things are bad that she doesn't want to be touched. Because if you assumed it, then you are sending her a strong message that you don't love her. See, she probably has physical touch as a secondary language. Couples don't get together if they do not share any language. So, if you are the one who stopped touching, (because you felt so unloved and assumed she didn't want it) then you have stopped talking to her in any love language.

So, go back to intimating touch and cuddling, even if you feel that you are pushing yourself.

But mostly talk to her about what kind of things she would like to do while spending time together, and then arrange the baby sitter, or the activity to make it possible and then give her your undivided attention.

[Linked]

Thank you all for the kind words and good advice. We spoke for a couple hours last night. I'll try not to get into too much detail, cause this is obviously private, but I could use some help understanding what I ought to do next. The main points we touched on are bulleted below:

• We are both painfully aware of the lack of emotional intimacy in our marriage.
• She has felt rejected by me for most of our 10 years of marriage. Within the first few months of marriage apparently I told her that I wanted to be with my friends more than her. I would go out with them and leave her home alone where she had nothing to do. I didn't do this every night, but it really hurt her and she has never recovered. She says that she doesn't expect me to not do anything with friends, but I think that every time I do she is reminded of what I said. She said this "broke" her and she is still emotionally broken. I asked her if there was anything I could do that would unbreak her, but she said she didn't know.
• She feels like I don't do enough to help our family. One big item is that I never help in the mornings. I am a night person and she is a morning person, and that has led to me sleeping while she gets up with the kids and feeds them and gets them ready for the day. Every day. I do spend most evenings home playing with the kids, though I don't love doing it.
• She feels like I don't want to spend time with our family.
• She thinks I am too angry, and she is afraid to leave the kids alone with me for long stretches. This one hurt, because I don't agree. I do get frustrated pretty easily and I don't hide it. I have put some holes in walls when I can't handle one situation or another (never around her or the kids, I get away from the situation to let the frustration out). I haven't tried to reign it in because I feel my reasons for frustration are justified and I don't think pretending I'm not frustrated helps the situation. Also, I have never laid a hand on my kids; I am not a spanker. But I think showing I'm frustrated helps the kids know what actions might frustrate people. Perhaps I'm wrong here. As the dad/husband perhaps others in the family consider me an authority, and as an authority angry outbursts are viewed differently than one without authority. I'm not comfortable in that role.
• She doesn't reach out and touch me because I hurt her and she doesn't want to be emotionally open with someone who hurts her.
• These concerns aren't new to me and I have tried to remedy them. I've tried to take DW out on dates every other week this year. I've increased the amount of work I do around the house, though DW still does the lions share of the work. We bought a trailer and go on outings as a family at least once a month. But she is right, other than the dates with her, I would rather be playing basketball or playing the piano or having a video game night or a lot of other things for myself. I am sure that is clear as I try to go through the motions of being a good dad/husband. My increased efforts do nothing to heal her brokenness. She notices them, but it doesn't change her view of me.
• We both go back and forth thinking that divorce would be better for each of us.
• She feels she is blameless for our lack of emotional intimacy. It is all my fault.

At the end of this discussion we did seem to feel closer in spite of the serious and sad nature of the discussion. We made some jokes to each other and she was smiling some. Then I stupidly asked her why she thought I disaffected from the church. She said that she wasn't sure, probably because I wanted to do things the church doesn't allow. I told her that I do want to do the things the church has forbidden now, but that is not why I disaffected. I told her it was because I just don't believe it is true. And then I told her I thought the church was bad, and did bad things. And she shut down, and got wide-eyed, and told me she didn't see how this could work if I hate her beliefs. I tried to make a distinction between her beliefs and the institutional church, but she said she thought they were the same thing. Oops. I think I may just not be cut out for close relationships, I am not good at this.

Maybe I should go get personal counseling to help figure myself out if she won't come along.

[Newme]

Linked,
I too, can relate more than I wish.
It's tough to be married with kids, when it seems to be mutually a downer to be around each other.

One way, I see hope for you & her is that you actually could discuss this & you still like each other enough to date regularly.
Maybe not so much the church thing - but you guys were able to smile & laugh & discuss how you both think & feel. It seems like you're taking responsibility- trying & realizing how you could do better. I admire that. Ideally, she'd realize more of her response-ability in the relationship (which takes 2). Who knows why she doesn't- but it could be partly church guilt/shame that is too overwhelming so she pushes it away (following lds leaders' examples). Maybe she also feels a lot less-than compared to you, so she tries to compensate by shifting blame. Not justifying that, but maybe (to give it your best before throwing in the towel) - compliment her, show her you prioritize her & really actively & empathically listen to her. For many women, that is how they feel close & then want to be sexually close.

Jordan Peterson had some practical advise for relationships - kind of blunt - but basically letting each other know what both want & both trying to fulfill it - & any attempts (even if clumsy) are rewarded (with praise, etc) - thereby training each other to love in meaningful ways. https://youtu.be/9VM1UA0pCMQ

[Corsair]

This is really hard and we can only wish you well. The correct answer is probably personal and couples counseling from a license professional, not your well-meaning bishop. Make certain that any depression is properly diagnosed and treated by a medical professional. We all know that there will be no easy answer that fits in a forum post. Still, we wish you well as you move forward in a problem that is likely more common than we realize in church and society today.

[Korihor]

This is really hard and we can only wish you well. The correct answer is probably personal and couples counseling from a license professional, not your well-meaning bishop. Make certain that any depression is properly diagnosed and treated by a medical professional. We all know that there will be no easy answer that fits in a forum post. Still, we wish you well as you move forward in a problem that is likely more common than we realize in church and society today.

As always, Corsair has sage advice.
Something to consider - depression can be real in these situations. Since leaving the TBM mindset, I realized I actually had some depression and a faith crisis compounded it. I took an anti-depression medication for a while, Paxil. Depression can be a temporary condition brought on by life events. Taking a prescription for depression was good for me. I used it for a few months and it helped. It didn't make it all go away. It didn't fix anything by itself, but it helps alleviate some suffering. Maybe it applies to you or others in a current situation, maybe not. In this situation, I look at it the same as ibuprofen, alleviate temporary suffering.

[Corsair]

As always, Corsair has sage advice.

Dude, you did not see the paragraph of less savory advice that I typed out and then deleted. Linked is welcome to PM me if he really wants something laced with more humor along with strategy from "The Art of War".

[Korihor]

As always, Corsair has sage advice.

Dude, you did not see the paragraph of less savory advice that I typed out and then deleted.

still probably pretty good.

[Red Ryder]

As always, Corsair has sage advice.

Dude, you did not see the paragraph of less savory advice that I typed out and then deleted.

still probably pretty good.

Gee, get a room you two! It's nauseating!

Not justifying that, but maybe (to give it your best before throwing in the towel) - compliment her, show her you prioritize her & really actively & empathically listen to her. For many women, that is how they feel close & then want to be sexually close.

This is so true and took months of therapy to understand and change. It's so worth it!