A Turn for the Worse

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Linked
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A Turn for the Worse

Post by Linked » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:18 am

Yesterday went badly.

We were sitting down for dinner and my 6 year old said the prayer for the food. He recently heard his friend pray "Please help the missionaries find people to teach" and now my son always says it. I hate it. I hope the missionaries never find another person to teach, and that the church lets them provide real service. As he said it I shook my head and frowned, then looked up at my wife in case she was watching. She was. I felt like I was caught so I gave a sheepish grin. She looked offended, got up, and went to our room.

After feeding the kids and myself I went in to talk to her. She was crying a bit. She asked me why I would make jokes and disrespect her beliefs like that. I told her that I hate hearing my son pray for the missionaries to find people to teach. She cried harder and we were silent for a while. She asked why I was still there and I told her I was trying to be there for her. Another minute went by, then she told me to leave. I said ok and stood up, then she got a forceful voice and said, "No, LEAVE!"

It got real then, so I asked her how far she really wanted me to leave, with an edge in my voice. She paused, then said she didn't care, just go. So I left, and she wept.

I took care of the kids the rest of the night and put them to bed. I went back into our room around midnight and went to sleep. She didn't seem to sleep at all.

So I think my wife just asked me to get out of her life. Entirely based on our differences in religious belief. Our relationship has never been perfect, but I've been going to counseling to try to improve it. I go by myself because she won't come. Things have been getting better overall, but not regarding the religious stuff.

So do I pack up and go? Do I double down on pretending that I am not bothered by certain aspects of the church? Do I move to the guest bedroom and start working on divorce paperwork?

I can't see myself leaving, I like seeing my kids everyday, and I feel it would be wrong for me to not be there. It wouldn't be fair for the kids to not see their dad, and it wouldn't be fair for my wife to have to care for them by herself. But if we constantly hurt each other because of our religious views then that's no good either. I don't think I can pretend the church doesn't bother me. I really need some space from it. I want to move on and think of the church as a misguided but mostly neutral organization, but can't with close TBM family, TBM wife and kids starting on the path. Then to cope I come to NOM and reddit and I'm thinking more about church than ever before. I guess option 3 would work. See the kids but move toward the future.

I just needed to get this out, thanks for being here NOM.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Korihor
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Korihor » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:55 am

Man, this really sucks.
I don't want to be the first to respond. I don't have any good ideas. But I can offer my sympathy that I understand what you are saying. It really sucks.

Maybe things can be repaired. Maybe they can't. Maybe it will simmer for a while. Your experience last night sounds like a bad night. I wouldn't make life decisions based on one bad night, but I would suggest taking a step back and look at the big picture.

I'm so sorry for you after reading this story. If only we could snap our fingers and make it all better.
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:12 pm

I'm sorry to hear this too. I feel very fortunate that in the ups and downs of my married life, it has never gotten that bad. That's just so unfortunate.

What's even more unfortunate, is that she won't go to counselling. Is there a reason for her reticence? Does she not see the value? As a last resort, and I've told Sister M this, I'm even willing to go to LDS Services if that's what it took to try and work things out. At this point, does Sis. Linked even WANT to save your marriage if she's not even willing to do that? That's just so sad, to see a marriage go in the toilet over something as innocuous as belief. I'm not holding my breath, but the church has got to do better in helping marriages in faith transitions. That they're willing to see families split rather than step in is despicable. My hope and prayers, such as they are, are with you.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
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dogbite
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by dogbite » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:16 pm

Without knowing her I really can't give any meaningful advice constructive to the relationship.

As far as selfish advice for you, don't leave. That weakens your position.

While the NOM mantra has always been to go slowly, it should be added to.
Go slowly and improve your relationships separately from religion before you say or do anything about your change in belief. Strengthen those relationships so that as you remove religion, the relationships stay strong.

Rather than being manipulative of others, this is sincere effort to demonstrate love and be active in those relationships as yourself rather than letting religion be the glue or crutch that supports things. It's more authentic and healthier.

My thoughts are arriving to late to be helpful probably.

Start dating your wife anew as the new you. See where it goes.

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Emower
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Emower » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm

Oh boy, you are in uncharted waters for me. I am so sorry you are in this position. All I can do is offer my support. Would it help for her to talk to a wife that is making it work? I could get my wife to reach out on facebook or something. We have a good relationship and she is giving me space while still holding some TBM views. But people are so different. Let me know.

I see a couple of options.
1. You swallow your doubts, put a game face on and do what she wants. This is not too sustainable, isnt authentic, and entirely depends on how much you value her and the family. No judgement here from me or anyone if you dont value it like you always thought you did.

2. She comes part of the way. Probably needs to be initiated with prodding from someone else. Do you know anyone close to you and her who could do this? Also, there is a group on Facebook called Another Testament of Marriage? I think it is like exmo reddit for spouses whose SO has left (i.e. bitch session) but my wife gets something out of it. This option may happen when faced with the unpleasant prospect of divorce, you wont know until you go down the road.

3. You become more nuanced in your views in a way that allows you to tolerate church involvement. I remember not to long ago where I could have stopped my research and focused on developing a way to nuance my way through. I didnt want nuance, so I pushed on and left nuance behind. But the way my mind works its possible that I could compartmentalize and return to a modicum of activity if people were aware of the way I was doing it. If my objections were noted in the log so to speak. This may not be possible for you.

edit: apparently this sites edits bitch to say biddy? Thats funny. Its like the good place on Netflix... What the fork!?

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Hagoth
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Hagoth » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:27 pm

Didn't the church recently publish something (Ensign? ) about the need to support mixed faith marriages? Maybe that would be a good place to start, assuming I'm actually thinking of a church source and not something unofficial. Does this ring a bell?

I agree with Mormorrisey that if she has any interest in saving the marriage she needs to a least reconsider counseling. A marriage that can't take into account the needs of both people will always be on unsteady ground.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Red Ryder
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:29 pm

Linked, that's tough. I've been there done that way too many times. Fortunately it's an easy fix. Unfortunately it's like watching the bachelorette with your wife. You just have to learn when to keep your mouth shut and realize it's all entertainment and nobody cares who gets a rose along the way because at the end of the day it's all scripted. Scripted prayers. Scripted beliefs. Scripted, right?

You need to work on your exit plan. If you plan to stay married then your exit plan has to be a plan to disengage your mind from the church. Right now you've unplugged yourself but the wiring is still zip tied all around you. Start by distancing yourself from the action. If it's during family prayers, or tucking the kids in then just stand back and let them do their thing. Compliment your son for a nice prayer. Show respect for their beliefs even if your brain is screaming on the inside. Learn to stand back and observe from an outsiders perspective. It's actually a great skill to learn that you can apply to a lot of people and situations that will help you.

The TBM wives need emotional support and reassurance that their kids should love Jesus. You can detangle the indoctrination when they get a little older by teaching them to think and ask questions. They will begin to see the church is scripted like the bachelorette.

As for the wife, show empathy and love. She's trying to figure all this out just as much as you are. You both have to define the new normal and that takes time, tears, and suffering through many more situations like this.

You guys will make it. It just takes time!
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“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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Silver Girl
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Silver Girl » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:52 pm

Linked -

Your post is so sad. It hurts to think of what you're going through, and also what she is going through. I don't have personal experience, but you're definitely in my thoughts, as is she.

It's understandable that you dislike the things your son is picking up from others. You have a right to help him develop his own concepts, and that will be tough if her thoughts on that differ so much. But she also has that right, and for her, the church is all good and all true. So it would be very painful for her to feel her belief (a huge part of her own identity) is being mocked, or that her DH does not respect it. It's one thing to respect an actual belief (it is tough for me to respect the beliefs of the church), but another to respect someone's right to believe something and their right to not have it criticized.

As Hagoth mentions (quoted below) - I recall some sort of guidance about mixed marriages, too. And, as he says, maybe a counselor could help you both reach that point of being able to agree to disagree.
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:27 pm
Didn't the church recently publish something (Ensign? ) about the need to support mixed faith marriages? Maybe that would be a good place to start, assuming I'm actually thinking of a church source and not something unofficial. Does this ring a bell?

I agree with Mormorrisey that if she has any interest in saving the marriage she needs to a least reconsider counseling. A marriage that can't take into account the needs of both people will always be on unsteady ground.
However, related to the church recommending supporting each other, if the church wants to cut down on the number of broken marriages and disrupted families, it needs to stop having talks in GC that brag about families praying for a lost sheep and lo & behold, the sheep returns and is now married in the temple and wears the underwear, etc.
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Silver Girl is sailing into the future. She is no longer scared.

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Linked
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Linked » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Thanks for the support my fellow nommies.
Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:12 pm
...
What's even more unfortunate, is that she won't go to counselling. Is there a reason for her reticence? Does she not see the value? As a last resort, and I've told Sister M this, I'm even willing to go to LDS Services if that's what it took to try and work things out. At this point, does Sis. Linked even WANT to save your marriage if she's not even willing to do that? That's just so sad, to see a marriage go in the toilet over something as innocuous as belief. I'm not holding my breath, but the church has got to do better in helping marriages in faith transitions. That they're willing to see families split rather than step in is despicable. My hope and prayers, such as they are, are with you.
She's come to counseling a few times. It is emotionally painful for her to talk about the real issues we face. She said she doesn't want to go anymore because nothing changes. (I think that is an indictment of her more than the counseling). I think I've offered the LDS Services stuff, but that wouldn't solve the problems she has with counseling. I think there is a part of both of us that is ready to cut each other loose; and another part that thinks that is a crazy idea. The church and blogernacle has plenty of articles recommending staying together, but the emotions and logic clearly recommend getting away from militant apostates.

Emower wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm
Oh boy, you are in uncharted waters for me. I am so sorry you are in this position. All I can do is offer my support. Would it help for her to talk to a wife that is making it work? I could get my wife to reach out on facebook or something. We have a good relationship and she is giving me space while still holding some TBM views. But people are so different. Let me know.
Thanks for the offer, but my wife does not want support from anyone in this. I have encouraged her to open up to someone, anyone about how she is feeling about this and she refuses. She says that is how I cope with stuff, not her. And she says that in a disparaging way, like I am bad because I don't keep things to myself. I recommended the Facebook group for wives of disaffected men and she looked at me like I was crazy.
Emower wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm
I see a couple of options.


1. You swallow your doubts, put a game face on and do what she wants. This is not too sustainable, isnt authentic, and entirely depends on how much you value her and the family. No judgement here from me or anyone if you dont value it like you always thought you did.
I don't think I can do this anymore. I am not a doubting mormon anymore, I am a former TBM mormon agnostic athiest who feels the institutional church uses way to much manipulation to be considered a force for good in the world. I try not to have ill will against those who believe in the teachings of the church, but it is difficult because they seem to worship the institutional church that I despise. Regardless of how much I value my wife and kids I don't know how to reconcile this.
Emower wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm
2. She comes part of the way. Probably needs to be initiated with prodding from someone else. Do you know anyone close to you and her who could do this? Also, there is a group on Facebook called Another Testament of Marriage? I think it is like exmo reddit for spouses whose SO has left (i.e. Biddy session) but my wife gets something out of it. This option may happen when faced with the unpleasant prospect of divorce, you wont know until you go down the road.
She won't talk to anyone else. She will barely talk to me about it. I've tried some gentle prodding to get her to come part way, but it seems very self-serving coming from me. Stuff like "What if I we were Catholic and this fight were about me wanting to become Mormon?" and "If I cheated on you and you divorced me for it, and then found you enjoyed having not having to worry about the toilet seat being up, does that mean that you divorced me because I left the toilet seat up?" But she shuts down.
Emower wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm
3. You become more nuanced in your views in a way that allows you to tolerate church involvement. I remember not to long ago where I could have stopped my research and focused on developing a way to nuance my way through. I didnt want nuance, so I pushed on and left nuance behind. But the way my mind works its possible that I could compartmentalize and return to a modicum of activity if people were aware of the way I was doing it. If my objections were noted in the log so to speak. This may not be possible for you.
I've never liked nuance. I'm an engineer. I like hard facts. I also struggle with the pretending and trying to put on an act like I am TBM. It grates on me. I've done it for years. I think I'm close to the end of that road.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Mahonri Moriancumer
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Mahonri Moriancumer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:27 pm

So sorry, Linked! Your DW and my DW sound a lot alike. Just over two years ago, she told me she wanted a divorce. I was stunned.

We met with our Bishop and he was able to calm her down. We had some counseling, but she got frustrated and stopped going. I've continued to go, but there's only so much you can do on your own. We're still together and some times are better than others, but our relationship is nowhere near what it used to be. I still attend Church and hold a calling, but I don't enjoy it and I'm not a believer. I do it for her and our believing kids.

I don't really have any good advice for you except to try to understand what she must be going through. She is grieving a loss. Give her time and space and just be the excellent father you are to your kids. She may come around, or she may not. Apologize for hurting her, but don't give in.

Good luck! I feel for you!

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Emower
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Emower » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:31 pm

Linked wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:37 pm
Thanks for the support my fellow nommies.
Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:12 pm
...
What's even more unfortunate, is that she won't go to counselling. Is there a reason for her reticence? Does she not see the value? As a last resort, and I've told Sister M this, I'm even willing to go to LDS Services if that's what it took to try and work things out. At this point, does Sis. Linked even WANT to save your marriage if she's not even willing to do that? That's just so sad, to see a marriage go in the toilet over something as innocuous as belief. I'm not holding my breath, but the church has got to do better in helping marriages in faith transitions. That they're willing to see families split rather than step in is despicable. My hope and prayers, such as they are, are with you.

She's come to counseling a few times. It is emotionally painful for her to talk about the real issues we face. She said she doesn't want to go anymore because nothing changes. (I think that is an indictment of her more than the counseling). I think I've offered the LDS Services stuff, but that wouldn't solve the problems she has with counseling. I think there is a part of both of us that is ready to cut each other loose; and another part that thinks that is a crazy idea. The church and blogernacle has plenty of articles recommending staying together, but the emotions and logic clearly recommend getting away from militant apostates.

Emower wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm
Oh boy, you are in uncharted waters for me. I am so sorry you are in this position. All I can do is offer my support. Would it help for her to talk to a wife that is making it work? I could get my wife to reach out on facebook or something. We have a good relationship and she is giving me space while still holding some TBM views. But people are so different. Let me know.
Thanks for the offer, but my wife does not want support from anyone in this. I have encouraged her to open up to someone, anyone about how she is feeling about this and she refuses. She says that is how I cope with stuff, not her. And she says that in a disparaging way, like I am bad because I don't keep things to myself. I recommended the Facebook group for wives of disaffected men and she looked at me like I was crazy.
Emower wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm
I see a couple of options.


1. You swallow your doubts, put a game face on and do what she wants. This is not too sustainable, isnt authentic, and entirely depends on how much you value her and the family. No judgement here from me or anyone if you dont value it like you always thought you did.
I don't think I can do this anymore. I am not a doubting mormon anymore, I am a former TBM mormon agnostic athiest who feels the institutional church uses way to much manipulation to be considered a force for good in the world. I try not to have ill will against those who believe in the teachings of the church, but it is difficult because they seem to worship the institutional church that I despise. Regardless of how much I value my wife and kids I don't know how to reconcile this.
Emower wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm
2. She comes part of the way. Probably needs to be initiated with prodding from someone else. Do you know anyone close to you and her who could do this? Also, there is a group on Facebook called Another Testament of Marriage? I think it is like exmo reddit for spouses whose SO has left (i.e. Biddy session) but my wife gets something out of it. This option may happen when faced with the unpleasant prospect of divorce, you wont know until you go down the road.
She won't talk to anyone else. She will barely talk to me about it. I've tried some gentle prodding to get her to come part way, but it seems very self-serving coming from me. Stuff like "What if I we were Catholic and this fight were about me wanting to become Mormon?" and "If I cheated on you and you divorced me for it, and then found you enjoyed having not having to worry about the toilet seat being up, does that mean that you divorced me because I left the toilet seat up?" But she shuts down.
Emower wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm
3. You become more nuanced in your views in a way that allows you to tolerate church involvement. I remember not to long ago where I could have stopped my research and focused on developing a way to nuance my way through. I didnt want nuance, so I pushed on and left nuance behind. But the way my mind works its possible that I could compartmentalize and return to a modicum of activity if people were aware of the way I was doing it. If my objections were noted in the log so to speak. This may not be possible for you.
I've never liked nuance. I'm an engineer. I like hard facts. I also struggle with the pretending and trying to put on an act like I am TBM. It grates on me. I've done it for years. I think I'm close to the end of that road.
The 4th option of course is making plans to move on. Tough as it may be. I like what red Ryder wrote about disengaging the mind from church. If you want to stay married, and nuance is not an option, disengagement is what is needed. I have a very hard time with the indoctrination of the kids, but honestly there is a lot of time between 6 and 18 with the prime mental shaping time being 12 to 18 where it comes to the church.

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Corsair
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Corsair » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:16 pm

Linked, this is a tough situation. I have to agree with others that de-escalation would be a good tactic, but that does not make it a lot easier on you. There is still the resentment from the deference you are obligated. I prefer to treat my dear wife's Mormonism like it was an expensive hobby that she loves. I feel indifference towards it, not anger. This is not a panacea, but it can lead to longer lasting solutions.

Anon70
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Anon70 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:07 pm

Just wanted to chime in with support and best wishes. Such a tough situation, totally avoidable and partially, at the least, the church's fault :(

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Linked
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Linked » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:52 am

Thanks again for the support and suggestions.

She was conciliatory yesterday, and we had a long chat. She doesn't want a divorce, so that is good. Still no hope for herself to be happy though. Thanks for being here to talk me through a tough day!

Regarding the counseling and me trying to be a better husband. During the chats like the one we had last night she tends to get frustrated because we rehash the same stuff every time so she feels like nothing ever changes and what is the point. I asked her to name some improvements she has seen in me over the past year, and she threw me a couple bones. I reinforced that if I am improving in things then there are changes, and they are driven by these discussions. Then I asked her what improvements she has made in herself, and she responded that she felt like she was already giving everything. So I said, "Then all the problems are mine?" And she responded that she didn't say that and got defensive, but we diffused it. Hopefully she can get introspective and shift some paradigms eventually. Or she's gonna be miserable for a long time.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Dmower
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Dmower » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:17 pm

As a mostly TBM wife to a disaffected husband, my DH thought perhaps my perspective here might be of interest. I hope I can share my thoughts without stepping on anyone’s toes, as I know I’m kind of the oddball on here.
First I want to take a moment to acknowledge that those of you on the disaffected side of the struggle have been through a lot. This process is often difficult and painful for all involved. The rest of my post is going to be about some of what the “TBM” spouse goes through, but I haven’t forgotten that you’ve been through the wringer too.
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It is so hard to have the MOST important things in your life at odds with each other. To have your DH (the most important person in your personal universe) and your faith (the structure which helps you understand and give meaning to life) pulling you in opposite directions is excruciating. Every time your DH rolls his eyes, or huffs at an overly TBM prayer/talk/etc just pulls your soul a little farther apart. You go to church and you hear talks or comments on your spouse’s (or your own) trigger topics and you feel the church pulling you in the other direction.
You’re hurting, but you can’t turn to either of your main supports (DH and church) because they’re the ones pulling you to pieces. Often people feel like they can’t tell family/friends because the non-believing spouse isn’t ready for others to know or because it’s just to painful to try to explain how things are. You are pretty much left feeling completely alone while trying to deal with what may be the most emotionally painful thing you’ve ever had to face in your life. Obviously the disaffected spouse isn’t trying to cause this kind of pain, and I’m sure in most cases the TBM spouse knows that this is the case. But the pain is there and so very real. It’s possible that a reluctance to go to counseling or talk about all of this is because you know your SO is not trying to hurt you and you don’t want them to know how much pain you’re really in.
Linked, I can’t speak for your wife, but I would bet that deep down her reaction to your actions during the prayer weren’t because you were irreverent during prayer, or because you’re anti missionary work, or any other more “churchy” issue. I would imagine there is a whole lot more pain and anguish buried under the surface than you think, and you just unknowingly poked at the heart of it. Not because you’re a bad person, but because it happens. She needs help and support through this struggle and has nowhere to turn for it, not even to you. She may not even realize all this herself.
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I’m no expert, but it seems to me that through this process it is important for a person to try to show their love more often (and possibly in ways that aren’t the norm) than would normally be required for their spouse to feel loved and appreciated. They need to know that you’re still there for them, you still want them around even if you don’t want their religion. Logically they probably know that, but it’s not always easy to convince their heart, so you have to help them out. Ideally this would be a two way street with both spouses stepping up to support each other through this crisis, but life isn’t always that easy. Start with you, because that’s the only person you can change anyway. Are you doing something to show your love and appreciation for her more often than you do something that shows your distaste for all things Mormon? In my personal experience it has meant the world to me when my DH does something extra or out of the ordinary that shows me he still loves me as much as ever. Maybe do some reading about love languages and see if you can ascertain what your DW’s are. Make sure to show her love in ways that are meaningful to her (which may be totally different than what would work best for you). If you’re not sure which love language(s) would be best, then try to find a way to use them all each day for awhile while you observe what seems to be most effective.
-A TBM DW

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:31 pm

Dmower wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:17 pm
As a mostly TBM wife to a disaffected husband, my DH thought perhaps my perspective here might be of interest. I hope I can share my thoughts without stepping on anyone’s toes, as I know I’m kind of the oddball on here.
First I want to take a moment to acknowledge that those of you on the disaffected side of the struggle have been through a lot. This process is often difficult and painful for all involved. The rest of my post is going to be about some of what the “TBM” spouse goes through, but I haven’t forgotten that you’ve been through the wringer too.
.
.
It is so hard to have the MOST important things in your life at odds with each other. To have your DH (the most important person in your personal universe) and your faith (the structure which helps you understand and give meaning to life) pulling you in opposite directions is excruciating. Every time your DH rolls his eyes, or huffs at an overly TBM prayer/talk/etc just pulls your soul a little farther apart. You go to church and you hear talks or comments on your spouse’s (or your own) trigger topics and you feel the church pulling you in the other direction.
You’re hurting, but you can’t turn to either of your main supports (DH and church) because they’re the ones pulling you to pieces. Often people feel like they can’t tell family/friends because the non-believing spouse isn’t ready for others to know or because it’s just to painful to try to explain how things are. You are pretty much left feeling completely alone while trying to deal with what may be the most emotionally painful thing you’ve ever had to face in your life. Obviously the disaffected spouse isn’t trying to cause this kind of pain, and I’m sure in most cases the TBM spouse knows that this is the case. But the pain is there and so very real. It’s possible that a reluctance to go to counseling or talk about all of this is because you know your SO is not trying to hurt you and you don’t want them to know how much pain you’re really in.
Linked, I can’t speak for your wife, but I would bet that deep down her reaction to your actions during the prayer weren’t because you were irreverent during prayer, or because you’re anti missionary work, or any other more “churchy” issue. I would imagine there is a whole lot more pain and anguish buried under the surface than you think, and you just unknowingly poked at the heart of it. Not because you’re a bad person, but because it happens. She needs help and support through this struggle and has nowhere to turn for it, not even to you. She may not even realize all this herself.
.
I’m no expert, but it seems to me that through this process it is important for a person to try to show their love more often (and possibly in ways that aren’t the norm) than would normally be required for their spouse to feel loved and appreciated. They need to know that you’re still there for them, you still want them around even if you don’t want their religion. Logically they probably know that, but it’s not always easy to convince their heart, so you have to help them out. Ideally this would be a two way street with both spouses stepping up to support each other through this crisis, but life isn’t always that easy. Start with you, because that’s the only person you can change anyway. Are you doing something to show your love and appreciation for her more often than you do something that shows your distaste for all things Mormon? In my personal experience it has meant the world to me when my DH does something extra or out of the ordinary that shows me he still loves me as much as ever. Maybe do some reading about love languages and see if you can ascertain what your DW’s are. Make sure to show her love in ways that are meaningful to her (which may be totally different than what would work best for you). If you’re not sure which love language(s) would be best, then try to find a way to use them all each day for awhile while you observe what seems to be most effective.
Thank you for so gently and eloquently sharing this perspective.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Linked
Posts: 1533
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Linked » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:24 pm

Dmower wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:17 pm
As a mostly TBM wife to a disaffected husband, my DH thought perhaps my perspective here might be of interest. I hope I can share my thoughts without stepping on anyone’s toes, as I know I’m kind of the oddball on here.
First I want to take a moment to acknowledge that those of you on the disaffected side of the struggle have been through a lot. This process is often difficult and painful for all involved. The rest of my post is going to be about some of what the “TBM” spouse goes through, but I haven’t forgotten that you’ve been through the wringer too.
.
.
It is so hard to have the MOST important things in your life at odds with each other. To have your DH (the most important person in your personal universe) and your faith (the structure which helps you understand and give meaning to life) pulling you in opposite directions is excruciating. Every time your DH rolls his eyes, or huffs at an overly TBM prayer/talk/etc just pulls your soul a little farther apart. You go to church and you hear talks or comments on your spouse’s (or your own) trigger topics and you feel the church pulling you in the other direction.
You’re hurting, but you can’t turn to either of your main supports (DH and church) because they’re the ones pulling you to pieces. Often people feel like they can’t tell family/friends because the non-believing spouse isn’t ready for others to know or because it’s just to painful to try to explain how things are. You are pretty much left feeling completely alone while trying to deal with what may be the most emotionally painful thing you’ve ever had to face in your life. Obviously the disaffected spouse isn’t trying to cause this kind of pain, and I’m sure in most cases the TBM spouse knows that this is the case. But the pain is there and so very real. It’s possible that a reluctance to go to counseling or talk about all of this is because you know your SO is not trying to hurt you and you don’t want them to know how much pain you’re really in.
Linked, I can’t speak for your wife, but I would bet that deep down her reaction to your actions during the prayer weren’t because you were irreverent during prayer, or because you’re anti missionary work, or any other more “churchy” issue. I would imagine there is a whole lot more pain and anguish buried under the surface than you think, and you just unknowingly poked at the heart of it. Not because you’re a bad person, but because it happens. She needs help and support through this struggle and has nowhere to turn for it, not even to you. She may not even realize all this herself.
.
I’m no expert, but it seems to me that through this process it is important for a person to try to show their love more often (and possibly in ways that aren’t the norm) than would normally be required for their spouse to feel loved and appreciated. They need to know that you’re still there for them, you still want them around even if you don’t want their religion. Logically they probably know that, but it’s not always easy to convince their heart, so you have to help them out. Ideally this would be a two way street with both spouses stepping up to support each other through this crisis, but life isn’t always that easy. Start with you, because that’s the only person you can change anyway. Are you doing something to show your love and appreciation for her more often than you do something that shows your distaste for all things Mormon? In my personal experience it has meant the world to me when my DH does something extra or out of the ordinary that shows me he still loves me as much as ever. Maybe do some reading about love languages and see if you can ascertain what your DW’s are. Make sure to show her love in ways that are meaningful to her (which may be totally different than what would work best for you). If you’re not sure which love language(s) would be best, then try to find a way to use them all each day for awhile while you observe what seems to be most effective.
DMower, I am so grateful that you would log on and share your perspective on this, I appreciate it. I wrote up a response below, just putting my thoughts down after reading through yours. Feel free to respond or not. Again, thank you for your comments.

I am aware of the situation my DW is in, being torn apart, but I'm not handling it perfectly, or even well. I see her situation and isolation and pain. It took me a while to get an idea of the depths of her pain, maybe a year ago in one of our discussions I realized that she has no hope for happiness for herself left in her. She is driven day to day with her need to be a good mother and a good person, but not by a hope for happiness. I have tried with varying levels of success to make changes to myself to be a better husband and father. Like most people, our relationship issues extend beyond religious differences, so I am trying to improve those where I can. For the religious differences she is going to have to figure out how to accept it and find hope within it, as do I. For better or worse I have pushed her to do that with stories to get her to see things differently. I have pushed her to find someone to talk to about this, family, friends, therapist, or Bishop. But like you say it is painful for her and she would rather deal with the miserable situation she is in than expose herself to that pain.

I could do a better job showing her love. We've talked about love languages, and I try to hit hers, but I find I always fall back into showing love in my love languages, which she rejects leaving me frustrated and feeling like I am the only one trying. I think she does the same. She also has some very deep wounds that I apparently gave her early and often in our marriage. Something I didn't realize until very recently is that perhaps as important as showing love appropriately is recognizing what emotional wounds your spouse is susceptible to and avoiding hurting them in that way. She will bring up things I said when we first got married repeatedly that she hasn't been able to get over. Oops.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Dmower
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:36 pm

Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Dmower » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:39 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:24 pm
I realized that she has no hope for happiness for herself left in her. She is driven day to day with her need to be a good mother and a good person, but not by a hope for happiness. I have tried with varying levels of success to make changes to myself to be a better husband and father. Like most people, our relationship issues extend beyond religious differences, so I am trying to improve those where I can. For the religious differences she is going to have to figure out how to accept it and find hope within it, as do I.
That must be so heartbreaking for you both, I'm sorry!

It sounds like you are trying hard to be the best you can be. Hopefully she can find a way to find hope in the future and joy in the now before it's too late for the two of you.
-A TBM DW

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Corsair
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Location: Phoenix

Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Corsair » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:58 am

Dmower wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:17 pm
As a mostly TBM wife to a disaffected husband, my DH thought perhaps my perspective here might be of interest. I hope I can share my thoughts without stepping on anyone’s toes, as I know I’m kind of the oddball on here.
I really appreciate your perspective on this issue. You and my wife need to have lunch sometime.

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Enoch Witty
Posts: 297
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Re: A Turn for the Worse

Post by Enoch Witty » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:19 am

Dang. I just wrote a literal novel. Like 10-12 paragraphs. But NOM logged me out and I lost it all. There are not enough swear words in the world right now. I may try to revisit. But damn. Couldn't save it by hitting back on the browser. SOB. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

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