Shooters and Clubbers

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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SeeNoEvil
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:41 am

Re: Shooters and Clubbers

Post by SeeNoEvil » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:06 am

I am more effected by my ancestors participation in a mass murder than I let on. Yesterday I broke down and for the first time in I don't know how long I just sobbed. I think I was letting out all the anger I have for this church and for what my family, ancestors and I have had to sacrifice just because the church commanded/demanded it. I don't expect everyone to understand this and I didn't when I first started exploring my doubts in the church. I found some who were very angry on the boards and didn't understand why they were so mad. The more I learned about the history of this church and its interworkings the more I found myself getting angry. I get the anger now.
"Every event that has taken place in this universe has led you to this moment.
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown

"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57

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SeeNoEvil
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:41 am

Re: Shooters and Clubbers UPDATE

Post by SeeNoEvil » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:27 pm

UPDATE: I thought I'd let you know what I've been up to in the last several weeks since I last commented on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I just couldn't let this one lie because I had to many questions. I'm just about finished reading, "Blood of the Prophets, Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows," by Will Bagley. Though a thick, large book and reminiscent of a college textbook, Mr. Bagley does an excellent job putting together a well-researched and meticulously layout thoughtful piece. Its been a slow and emotional read. Slow only because I had to stop several times and go back to re-read a phrase or section because I just could not wrap my head around what I just read. It reads like a novel and at times I forgot I was reading actual history and a horrific event involving my ancestors.

I hoped to find some answers by reading Bagley's (much recommended) book. I also planned to write a piece on my findings which I thought I would post. But now, after coming to almost the end of the book I fail at any attempt to write as I cannot find the words. This journey to know more about events surrounding the life of my ancestors has left me numb. Very few events in my life have left me speechless and this is one. There are no words that can effectively describe the horror of that day nor the events leading up to and then in its wake. There are no excuses. I read no words that gave me comfort or assurance that all was well in Zion back in 1857 and was disturbed by what I learned. I did learn the who and what helped set the stage and fuel the fire to plan and then murder 120 innocent men, women and children yet still I will never understand how in the name of their Mormon God they were okay with this.
Last edited by SeeNoEvil on Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Every event that has taken place in this universe has led you to this moment.
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown

"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57

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MalcolmVillager
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Shooters and Clubbers

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:04 pm

Thanks for the update. It really is sickening. I read that book, several blogs, and all the podcasts. I get how complicated the emotions of the time were, but still how can any people of faith be involved in such horror?!!

I look forward to any additional commentary you can provide.

Thoughtful
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Shooters and Clubbers

Post by Thoughtful » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:41 pm

I tend to feel there's some deep and difficult healing work needed for those of us with a heritage in the church. My PB says my heritage is "illustrious" which always bothered me because to me, that has a bit of a negative connotation. As I've learned more about gggparenrs, I've realized many very good people have descended from some very confused, manipulated, manipulating, opportunist, and downright shady individuals.

I agree that it's not black and white, it's painful and confusing.

We may be carrying around some of this trauma as am inheritance.

I imagine that men didn't cry or process their experiences and probably suffered PTSD. Maybe gggma didn't know. He may have spared her. There may have been oaths to never speak of it, or threats.

I have a sense that if my family line could be cleansed, physical healing of chronic trending illnesses would dissipate from our family.

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SeeNoEvil
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:41 am

Re: Shooters and Clubbers

Post by SeeNoEvil » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:10 am

MalcolmVillager wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:04 pm
Thanks for the update. It really is sickening. I read that book, several blogs, and all the podcasts. I get how complicated the emotions of the time were, but still how can any people of faith be involved in such horror?!!

I look forward to any additional commentary you can provide.
I have read quite a bit as well prior to getting the book. The book by far is more detailed and graphic than any thing I read online. Definitely a shelf breaker if the reader still has one intact. As I moved through the events in the book I could feel myself distancing more and more away from the church and any ties I had there. Though I am no longer a member there were still those ties and clearly the church in early Utah and Brigham Young himself is not the church and prophet we were all taught to loved and respect. Yes I knew they were a crazy bunch but this! THIS is not what we were taught in Sunday School!
Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:41 pm
I tend to feel there's some deep and difficult healing work needed for those of us with a heritage in the church. My PB says my heritage is "illustrious" which always bothered me because to me, that has a bit of a negative connotation. As I've learned more about gggparenrs, I've realized many very good people have descended from some very confused, manipulated, manipulating, opportunist, and downright shady individuals.

I agree that it's not black and white, it's painful and confusing.

We may be carrying around some of this trauma as am inheritance.

I imagine that men didn't cry or process their experiences and probably suffered PTSD. Maybe gggma didn't know. He may have spared her. There may have been oaths to never speak of it, or threats.

I have a sense that if my family line could be cleansed, physical healing of chronic trending illnesses would dissipate from our family.
There were oaths made and death threats to any one who told. BY himself even spoke over the pulpit warning the people not to tell. I have no doubt in my mind now that my ggg grandmother knew. If she didn't she had to have been awfully naive to not notice or hear because people did talk, whisper and murmur. The 17 children who were left over from the slaughter were scattered among the Mormons, sometimes living under the same roof as the Shooter or Clubber who murdered their very own family. They were frequently moved from house to house as people got tired of taking care of them. Mormon men, women and children wore the clothing and jewelry taken from the wagon trains along with their money and other possessions which they refused to return to the families of the children once they were rescued. I do feel the pioneers were trapped and brainwashed into thinking, "They were nothing without the church," (sound familiar?) and felt they had no where to go. Which would give reason to why they did what they did in order to survive and protect their own families.
"Every event that has taken place in this universe has led you to this moment.
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown

"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57

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