Called on a porn-fighting mission?

[Thoughtful]

Its pretty gross how the church thinks untrained people are qualified to do counseling... whether for porn, substance abuse, marriage and family, career, finance....I think it's creepy that the mechanic next door might be "called" and suddenly qualified to be any type of counselor. It is a lot like Chairman Mao in China... let the doctors be farmers and farmers doctors....

[Corsair]

My DH and I have been called on to serve at the Salt Lake Victoria Secrets Mission[/size]

Shouldn't that be "Fanny's Secret" or "Sylvia Sessions' Secret"? Both of those roll of the tongue really easily from an LDS point of view. Although, having things "roll off the tongue" may not be something that LDS policy would approve.

[Hagoth]

Its pretty gross how the church thinks untrained people are qualified to do counseling... whether for porn, substance abuse...

And a broad spectrum of problems are treated equally, by untrained amateurs, in the same 12-step program. I remember the local addiction program missionary couple telling me that the people in their group included sex offenders, drug addicts, porn "addicts," sleep addicts..." what? sleep addicts? Someone who has a sleep disorder gets the same diagnosis and treatment as a someone with a penchant for exposing their genitals in public?

But now it sounds like they've spun off porn as a special class of addiction that needs more attention than others.

[Thoughtful]

Its pretty gross how the church thinks untrained people are qualified to do counseling... whether for porn, substance abuse...

And a broad spectrum of problems are treated equally, by untrained amateurs, in the same 12-step program. I remember the local addiction program missionary couple telling me that the people in their group included sex offenders, drug addicts, porn "addicts," sleep addicts..." what? sleep addicts? Someone who has a sleep disorder gets the same diagnosis and treatment as a someone with a penchant for exposing their genitals in public?

But now it sounds like they've spun off porn as a special class of addiction that needs more attention than others.

My ward handles porn and substances separately.

Being familiar with the premise of 12 steps that they plagiarized, there are some ethical issues with how they do the groups as well -- which should be at a neutral location, facilitated by a person in recovery, and completely voluntary/ anonymous. Not assigned as part of a repentance process and facilitated by your neighbor who was "called"...

[Hagoth]

This is a bit of a derailment but it's near enough to the topic that I didn't want to start a new thread.

This concept is so Mormon that it almost fits the caffeinated beverage thread in the way Mormons seem to like to get as close to the edge of something they know is forbidden by their religion and still somehow manage to keep it completely within the realm that their shame indicator considers the halls of righteousness.

What I'm talking about is a special little branch of pornography that my son just told me about. It's called Mormon Porn, aka Bubble Porn. This kind of dropped my jaw, but maybe it's old news.

Note: you are offended by bikinis and bare shoulders do not follow this link. I would say it's MSFW (marginally safe for work) but some of the links are less so.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/mormon-porn-bubble-porn
Awesome right? It's a magnificent example of the ol' following the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law mentality. The idea is to make these girls look as naked as possible without actually seeing any of the anatomical parts that you have been told should trigger guilt (except for shoulders). They're not really nude but these enterprising young men found a way to trick themselves into seeing nude.

It reminds me of the documentary about Clean Flicks. The business owner said the really hard-R movies flew off the shelves in Utah County The more extreme they were the more popular. The renters knew they were edited to show just as much as their culture allowed, so it was OK to rent them. They could fill in the blanks with their imaginations. Somehow it is softer than "soft core" porn and yet simultaneously nastier.

So which is worse, actually seeing a nipple (of which we and every mammal on the planet have at least two) or getting aroused by the fact that you are as close as possible to actually seeing a nipple?

Some stuff that I'm sure I've rambled on about before:

Which takes me back to art school. I was in a life drawing class with a kid who transferred from BYU. He said drawing real nud models was kind of a letdown because the girls that posed for BYU classes in ultra tight/thin body stockings made it all seem so much more sexy and exciting.

That kind of mystification of the human body just can't be healthy. The one thing that all humans have in common is a human body. It's really bizarre when you think about how traumatized we are as a culture about seeing our human-ness on display, particularly when balanced against how accessibility and ubiquitiy of pornography in he internet age.

And this is a relatively new thing. Has anybody here been to Washington DC? https://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/3658221507. Is anyone here old enough to remember the painting of Ruth in the Salt Lake temple with a partially revealed nipple (but no shoulders, thank goodness)? Why were those things inspiring a hundred years ago but not so much in this age of supposed moral decline?

It's really a strange and fascinating topic.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

You know, the aspect about porn that bothers me the most is that there is a lot of human trafficking of those "starring" in the porn, as I understand it anyway. It's sickening to me. It goes against every fiber of my morality.

I'd like to see some documentation for this claim. I realize this is a standard talking point from Fight the New Drug, but since I've yet to find anything they actually get right, I'm skeptical of their claims on this. Though I've seen them state this many times, I've yet to see them cite any support.

Jeffret,

Thanks for bringing this up. Take a look at my lazy approach to qualify my claim: "[this happens] as I understand it." I should have known better.

I thought I had done some research on this a while back and concluded, based on that research, that the porn industry is rampant with human trafficking/forced labor. Looking into this now on what I consider reputable sites (U.S. Dept of Labor, the United Nations, U.S. Justice Department, International Labor Organization) I cannot find anything to support the claim that the porn industry uses forced labor more than other industries. I'm not making the claim that the porn industry doesn't have more forced labor, but since I can't find it called out by the sources I've looked at, I can't conclude that it is worse, let alone outrageously worse, in regards to other industries and forced labor.

If my research is accurate, to view the porn industry as evil because of the human trafficking associated with it is like calling manufacturing or farming generally evil because those industries have instances of forced labor.

Now if someone can show me how my research is flawed, please do. I did it here at work, so I wasn't using the search term "porn." However, I think that might be a less biased approach. I was looking at the information in general, and in general, the porn industry is not called out.

Great job being scientifically skeptical!
Zack

[Jeffret]

Thanks for bringing this up. Take a look at my lazy approach to qualify my claim: "[this happens] as I understand it." I should have known better.

Let me be clear that my post wasn't intended in any way as an attack on you. Or that I intended for you to provide the backing data. Rather it was the result of a sudden personal stroke of insight. Your comment was just a place for me to hang my analysis.

When I read your earlier comment, my line of thought went like this:

Agreed.

Wait...

How do we know that's true? Because Fight the New Drug said so.

Wait...

Has FtND ever said anything correct? Not that I'm aware of.

Has FtND ever backed their claims with valid, dependable evidence? Not that I'm aware of.

Can I think of any evidence that backs their claim? Not that I can think of.

Hmm...


And the rest is what I posted.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

Thanks for bringing this up. Take a look at my lazy approach to qualify my claim: "[this happens] as I understand it." I should have known better.

Let me be clear that my post wasn't intended in any way as an attack on you. Or that I intended for you to provide the backing data. Rather it was the result of a sudden personal stroke of insight. Your comment was just a place for me to hang my analysis.

When I read your earlier comment, my line of thought went like this:

Agreed.

Wait...

How do we know that's true? Because Fight the New Drug said so.

Wait...

Has FtND ever said anything correct? Not that I'm aware of.

Has FtND ever backed their claims with valid, dependable evidence? Not that I'm aware of.

Can I think of any evidence that backs their claim? Not that I can think of.

Hmm...


And the rest is what I posted.

You didn't even contradict me. It was more like wondering if that claim was really right, but this quote seems appropriate.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.

I mean, what group would think they're persecuted because people contradict them?

No need to clarify that you weren't trying to attack me. You may not have intended for me to provide backing data, but if my original claim was right, I owed it to you. Your line of thought was right in line with what I aspire to (making conclusions based on scientific skepticism, critical thinking, or whatever you want to call it). My unsubstantiated claim was just another example of how making a conclusion without checking it out can lead to an unfounded claim. The idea that porn industry promotes human trafficking seemed to make sense to me. It's a good reminder that things that seem to make sense aren't always accurate--it should be about evidence, evidence, evidence.

I really appreciate you questioning this. As you noted FtND seems to put out a lot of unfounded crap regarding porn. It seems I was perpetuating some of that crap. Unless my research today missed something, you've helped me put aside a misconception I had.

Thanks for keeping me from harm!
Zack

[Hagoth]

Nevertheless, it's probably a poor career choice for anyone concerned about career longevity and retirement benefits.

[RubinHighlander]

If I were still paying tithing to the COB I'd like to see them spending some of it on fighting human trafficking. Combating the naked pics and vids online is like throwing a rock at the moon to change it's orbit. Putting the smack down on dirt bags that exploit kids and others into sexual slavery, that's the thing we should be fighting.

COB: Also stop with the fear mongering, shaming and harmful interviews about masturbation and focus on mutual respect and boundaries.

[Rob4Hope]

Its pretty gross how the church thinks untrained people are qualified to do counseling... whether for porn, substance abuse...

And a broad spectrum of problems are treated equally, by untrained amateurs, in the same 12-step program. I remember the local addiction program missionary couple telling me that the people in their group included sex offenders, drug addicts, porn "addicts," sleep addicts..." what? sleep addicts? Someone who has a sleep disorder gets the same diagnosis and treatment as a someone with a penchant for exposing their genitals in public?

But now it sounds like they've spun off porn as a special class of addiction that needs more attention than others.

My ward handles porn and substances separately.

Being familiar with the premise of 12 steps that they plagiarized, there are some ethical issues with how they do the groups as well -- which should be at a neutral location, facilitated by a person in recovery, and completely voluntary/ anonymous. Not assigned as part of a repentance process and facilitated by your neighbor who was "called"...

YES! BullsEYE! BINGO! RIGHT ON!

[Rob4Hope]

If I were still paying tithing to the COB I'd like to see them spending some of it on fighting human trafficking. Combating the naked pics and vids online is like throwing a rock at the moon to change it's orbit. Putting the smack down on dirt bags that exploit kids and others into sexual slavery, that's the thing we should be fighting.

COB: Also stop with the fear mongering, shaming and harmful interviews about masturbation and focus on mutual respect and boundaries.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!

Trafficking DOES exist. If the church wants to get that figured out and fight that,...they have to get into the DarkWeb, and then they are taking up the role of law-enforcement.

Why not launch a campaign to bring attention and focus on the problem?...oh wait! The church wouldn't want to get visible dirt on its hands....so can't do that....

Hummm.....?

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

If I were still paying tithing to the COB I'd like to see them spending some of it on fighting human trafficking. Combating the naked pics and vids online is like throwing a rock at the moon to change it's orbit. Putting the smack down on dirt bags that exploit kids and others into sexual slavery, that's the thing we should be fighting.

COB: Also stop with the fear mongering, shaming and harmful interviews about masturbation and focus on mutual respect and boundaries.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!

Trafficking DOES exist. If the church wants to get that figured out and fight that,...they have to get into the DarkWeb, and then they are taking up the role of law-enforcement.

Why not launch a campaign to bring attention and focus on the problem?...oh wait! The church wouldn't want to get visible dirt on its hands....so can't do that....

Hummm.....?

Ummm, keep in mind that the most important and first law in heaven is obedience, and we can clearly see the Church exerting manipulative . . . excuse me . . . benevolent control over its adherents via the fear and shame related to porn to accomplish this greater good for the corporate leaders . . . uhh . . . I mean for the covenant people. /s

Seriously though, wouldn't that be a wonderful thing, to fight against human trafficking. What could you do with millions, or even billions of (mall-constructing) dollars to free the down-trodden who are exploited as slaves? But I guess the profits, $eers, and revamilators have spoken, so the debate is over.

[Rob4Hope]

Ummm, keep in mind that the most important and first law in heaven is obedience, and we can clearly see the Church exerting manipulative . . . excuse me . . . benevolent control over its adherents via the fear and shame related to porn to accomplish this greater good for the corporate leaders . . . uhh . . . I mean for the covenant people. /s

Seriously though, wouldn't that be a wonderful thing, to fight against human trafficking. What could you do with millions, or even billions of (mall-constructing) dollars to free the down-trodden who are exploited as slaves? But I guess the profits, $eers, and revamilators have spoken, so the debate is over.

Yep...yep...yep.

I use to marvel about this whole situation--why the money could be spent in other areas and the progress it could accomplish, but was diverted to malls and other such things. Then it came to me: the church must maintain an "image" of success--just like lawyers or doctors often dress for success, drive cars indicating success, live in homes as showpieces, etc. Its about image.

I think this really is an objective. I also believe this is done as a priority.

You know,...Jesus wore a nice coat apparently, so having nice things is NOT a problem. But spending billions on a mall?

PS: Mini Rant.

Where the h3ll does the church get off regarding wearing nice stuff and spending billions on a mall, and pushing tithing to people who are living on the verge or WAY OVER the edge of poverty?

How is the City-Creek Mall feeding those people who are starving?....is it bringing in money enough to the church to justify the expenditure?...and is that money helping anyone?

[oliver_denom]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in these "porn fighting" campaigns is how they handle the youth. In our stake there was a fireside put together to train priesthood leaders, and another for teenagers, where they were encouraged to label anyone exposed to pornography as an addict. I couldn't imagine anything more damaging than taking a kid who polished his knob to a Victoria Secrets magazine and telling him that his brain chemistry has been permanently altered, and now he's an addict who can't quit on his own.

Sweet Jesus.

Then they want to haul these kids into support groups where they assign shameful euphemisms for waxing the dolphin, celebrating palm Sunday, or dating Pamela Handerson, just so they can talk about "their problem" in public. I couldn't imagine anything more humiliating and mentally damaging to do to a kid who's just going through puberty.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

PS: Mini Rant.

Where the h3ll does the church get off regarding wearing nice stuff and spending billions on a mall, and pushing tithing to people who are living on the verge or WAY OVER the edge of poverty?

How is the City-Creek Mall feeding those people who are starving?....is it bringing in money enough to the church to justify the expenditure?...and is that money helping anyone?

Unfortunately, we have no way to tell. They can _itch all they want about us complaining about their expenditures, but if it's all good, they are the only ones who have the power to shut us up on this subject. Instead they refuse to open their books. From Bill Reel's Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader:
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

I have never heard what I consider a reasonable explanation for the Church's financial nondisclosure. I have heard a lie about it though. Do you remember this one?
REPORTER: In my country we say the people’s churches, the Protestants, the Catholics. They publish all their budgets annually to all the public. Why is not this possible for your church?
GBH: Well, we simply think that information belongs to those who make the contributions, not to the world.

By their fruits amigos, by their fruits. From "Fight the New Drug" to "That information belongs to those who make the contributions" to so many other harmful things.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

Sweet Jesus.

Then they want to haul these kids into support groups where they assign shameful euphemisms for waxing the dolphin, celebrating palm Sunday, or dating Pamela Handerson, just so they can talk about "their problem" in public. I couldn't imagine anything more humiliating and mentally damaging to do to a kid who's just going through puberty.

I'd like to NOMinate brother Oliver for comment of the day!

[Rob4Hope]

Natash Helfer Parker did an article on masterbation and the seemingly non-existent current policy of the LDS church regarding this.

I find myself asking the question as to why young people are sent to these 12-step groups at all? And why are we, as a culture, taught to have no boundaries about privacy?

I mean REALLY! Lets all go to the bishop and tell him what we do privately?

COME ON PEOPLE!

[Jeffret]

You know, the aspect about porn that bothers me the most is that there is a lot of human trafficking of those "starring" in the porn, as I understand it anyway. It's sickening to me. It goes against every fiber of my morality.

I'd like to see some documentation for this claim. I realize this is a standard talking point from Fight the New Drug, but since I've yet to find anything they actually get right, I'm skeptical of their claims on this. Though I've seen them state this many times, I've yet to see them cite any support.

I got reminded of this discussion by something and looked up a little more background on it. If people don't mind my resurrecting this post on this tangent, I'd like to share a little more information I've found.

When I google for "human trafficking in porn", the first hit is Fight the New Drug's (FtND) page: An Online Epidemic: The Inseparable Link Between Porn & Trafficking (Infographic). And as I expected, they totally fail to support their claim. The bulk of their page is a large infographic from the University of New England on human sex trafficking, but it has absolutely no mention of porn. FtND's effort is to make the case by association, but they provide absolutely no substantiation. Most of the other early google results are from similar (or even the same organizations) without any better substantiation.

I did find a few other interesting discussions on the topic, which all refute the idea or dismiss it as being a major factor. On this blog post, a (Christian) expert in human trafficking explains that there is no significant link between porn and human trafficking, Is Pornography What’s Fueling Human Trafficking?. He states that making this unsubstantiated claim hurts victims and efforts to reduce human trafficking. Almost as if he were speaking to FtND, he says, "In the world of trafficking, porn is just a low hanging fruit that becomes an easy scapegoat."

In this Quora question Is the porn industry connected with human trafficking?, a respondent states that he has worked in the porn producing industry for years and never seen or heard of any instances. Admittedly, he could have reason to lie, but I think his proffered evidence is at least as good as FtND's.

This Quora question Are pornography and human trafficking related? If people stop watching porn, how will it affect human trafficking? also addresses the question. Several respondents mention that anti-porn crusaders attempt to conflate the two so as to provide justification for their efforts, which generally don't have a lot of support in society. One knowledgeable respondent states, "In terms of actual scientific data, what little there is has been found highly suspect and probably wrong."

Another respondent explains

But if you look at reliable statistics on human trafficking, rather than listening to B-list movie stars or politicians, you will see that the most common form of human trafficking is domestic servitude, followed by farm labor.

Yet strangely, nobody ever says "I think we need to get rid of domestic servants in order to crack down on human trafficking" or "how would trafficking be affected if we started policing the farming industry better?" No, it's always sex work and porn that people talk about when the subject comes up. Which tells me it's not actually human trafficking people are concerned about--it's about trying to get rid of porn and sex work because people think those things are yucky.

[Jeffret]

One of the respondents in the second Quora question mentioned this study: All men watch porn, scientists find

Researchers were conducting a study comparing the views of men in their 20s who had never been exposed to pornography with regular users.

But their project stumbled at the first hurdle when they failed to find a single man who had not been seen it.

The media articles, such as the Telegraph above, are a little exaggerated in their reporting. If they had looked harder, the researchers might have found someone.