(2nd Update) - Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,...

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Hagoth
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Hagoth » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:07 pm

I think I would point out to the leaders that this kind of behavior is why the church is losing, in Elder Holland's words, "it's best and brightest." We don't really reward people for achievements, we reward them for conformity. The kids who lie and fake their way through it are always held up above the ones who are often more deserving but more honest and less malleable. Those who are more independent find themselves being slowly shoved aside.

This reminds me of how I felt when I saw the poster in our foyer with a huge picture of the young men and the title "The Best of the Best." For some reason my boys weren't invited to the photo op. Was it because I had just resigned from my calling in the YM because I couldn't teach the brainwash lessons anymore? Could it be that your daughter has your apostate shadow hanging over her and that causes them to marginalize her when they should be embracing her? Who knows. If so it's not an intentional thing, just the result of warped perceptions and good ol' Mormon passive-aggression.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:18 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:07 pm
I think I would point out to the leaders that this kind of behavior is why the church is losing, in Elder Holland's words, "it's best and brightest." We don't really reward people for achievements, we reward them for conformity. The kids who lie and fake their way through it are always held up above the ones who are often more deserving but more honest and less malleable. Those who are more independent find themselves being slowly shoved aside.
Yep. My kids have been treated this way, although not with the obvious shunning that Hermey's kids were subjected too. It's all about keeping the right image, and if any member of the family is on the outside, they have no compunction lumping the rest of the family in there. It's sad. But I agree with many of the other posters, I would make it a big deal within the family, and that takes some of the sting off of the problem.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Brent
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Brent » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:50 pm

There 7s no grace in the LDS church. Works. Are. The. Only. Salvation.

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Corsair
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Corsair » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:53 pm

Hermey wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:31 am
Hi (insert Bishop's first name here),

Just a quick note here on the situation with my daughter. I just want to say thank you to you, and more especially to (insert YWP's first name here). Much like with both son #1 and son #2, all y’all have missed an opportunity and inadvertently (and successfully, I might add) done what I refrained myself from doing over the past six years.

If you want to understand my kids and the why, what, and how, I am always willing to share and discuss those insights. Regardless, the damage is done and you can’t un-ring a bell. Maybe that would help prevent it from inadvertently happening to others. If not, I understand.
This is a glorious response. You appear to have them in checkmate since they will lose the debate no matter how they proceed from here. I would, of course, emphasize to your daughter that she does not need to do any "make up" assignments from the bishop. The only fallout that I can see is how your wife reacts to this situation. Good luck on handling that, but I hope that this puts your wife in agreement with you that the situation was handled poorly. The average local leader will not realize that that the church needs each youth far more than any one youth needs the church.

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Hermey
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Hermey » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:49 pm

***1st UPDATE***


Again, enjoying everyone's input and sharing all of them with my wife. Thank you all so much.

**For the Record: I like my wife's current bishop. He was in the previous two bishoprics as a counselor while I was the clerk. He has always tried to be respectful of boundaries with me and the family. He is genuinely a good guy working within a flawed system. I have nothing but positive to say about my past interactions with him. Not so much about his second counselor though, but that is a story or two for another day. :lol: **

So, I sent off the email and received a response a little while later. He was unaware of anything that happened in the YW's class earlier that day, but was concerned and wants to make sure it is handled. I replied to his email with this....

Hi (insert Bishop's first name here),

I came home yesterday and asked DD how her day was. She broke down in tears and shared with me what was going on. Yesterday was the last straw for DD. She had yet to share it with DW, but did when she returned from VTing. DW was unaware of some of things that have transpired.

DW was going to say something this week to YWP regarding yesterday in particular. However, I felt it would be best to come from me. As I am already perceived as “Satan” in the neighborhood, I am not overly concerned with whether or not people like me or continue to like me.

As for the Personal Progress/YW’s Medallion… DD did the work. She didn’t take short-cuts. She earned every bit of it. She knows it, I know it, and her mother knows it. DD will address this directly with you and we will be present for support when she does.

I am happy to discuss with you in person any time prior to meeting together with DD.

Thanks,
Hermey
He responded back promptly and thought we might meet and discuss. So, tomorrow night it is. I appreciate his wanting to deal with the situation sooner than later.


Some thoughts from me:
As much as I enjoy see the skill of the Church with a pair of soccer cleats, I would have much preferred that they just smiled at DD and said, in the words of GBH, "Way to Go!"
Silver Girl wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:42 pm
Aside from the abusive YWP, the main takeaway for me is that she was led to believe she was doing all that was expected of her, and not once was she told this would happen.
This is our (DD, DW, and I) biggest beef with regard to this Personal Progress award situation. The leaders had a responsibility to let her know all long the process.They didn't, not once. This is the same argument that I use for my son not wanting to pursue scouting in the ward. He chose not to get the priesthood and has since resigned. What do I tell him when he does all of the other requirements for rank advancement, but they won't award it to him because all of the leadership positions necessary in this church troop are tied hand-in-hand with priesthood quorum callings which he will not be called to. I refuse to set him up for that disappointment.

Make no mistake, I AM viewed as "Satan" in this ward and my kids have undeservingly paid the price because of it. Given several factors involving what I would term "ward royalty" between a few of the girls and their leader-parents, it comes across a bit vindictive for a number of reasons that I haven't elaborated upon here. This has had her really bugged all day today. I think my wife is beginning to make the connections. She thought and hoped they were above that.

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:07 pm
I think I would point out to the leaders that this kind of behavior is why the church is losing, in Elder Holland's words, "it's best and brightest." We don't really reward people for achievements, we reward them for conformity. The kids who lie and fake their way through it are always held up above the ones who are often more deserving but more honest and less malleable. Those who are more independent find themselves being slowly shoved aside.

This reminds me of how I felt when I saw the poster in our foyer with a huge picture of the young men and the title "The Best of the Best." For some reason my boys weren't invited to the photo op. Was it because I had just resigned from my calling in the YM because I couldn't teach the brainwash lessons anymore? Could it be that your daughter has your apostate shadow hanging over her and that causes them to marginalize her when they should be embracing her? Who knows. If so it's not an intentional thing, just the result of warped perceptions and good ol' Mormon passive-aggression.
This, 100% this.


For now though, I am going to go with the assumption that the extra requirements were more likely a result of the YWP than from the Bishop himself.

I shall return and report!

Anon70
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Anon70 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:24 pm

Good for you.

Is seminary completion a requirement for this award? I did not graduate seminary but earned my medallion. That was a million years ago and I suppose the rules could have changed.....

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Hermey
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Hermey » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:38 pm

IMHO, the rules are rather arbitrary. Depends on the leader and the individual.

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2bizE
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by 2bizE » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:57 pm

Loved the post. You have a daughter that anyone would want to have. Great job raising her.

As academic as she is, perhaps a research paper on one of the historical essays would do the trick.
For the YWP, perhaps spray painting a big F$$k You on her lawn would be in order...kind of passive aggressive like she is.

In a year, your daughter will likely not care about the award, and will have moved on.
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Hagoth » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:35 am

I just wanted to say it's nice to see you on NOM, Hermey. There's always a home for you here on the Island of Misfit Toys.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:09 am

Way to go Satan!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Hermey
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Hermey » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:23 pm

***2nd Update***


Okay, so I met with my wife's Bishop this evening. He left the meeting location up to me to choose wherever I was comfortable. I opted for his office as that doesn't bother me and it was easy/private. We spoke for about an hour. He's a good guy and the Church just needs to clone him, like 30,000 times. One for each unit they claim. :lol:

We talked about both issues and I shared with him what works and doesn't work with my daughter. We'll have her meet with him (and us as backup) and she can state her case. What he decides from there is up to him. But I believe he'll do what's best for her. Next we covered the issues with the YW leaders. I touched on the various issues and how the current situation/approach isn't working and won't work with her. They are pushing her away and don't even realize it. They need to just let her be her. She's an amazing person and they are completely missing out on what she has to offer. Her path is her own and they need to let her blaze it. She'll amaze them if they just back off and let her.

Both the Bishop and I agree that it will be most effective to have my wife address the YW leaders instead of me. Rather than backing them into a corner and putting them on the defensive about the past interactions, she's going to do it from the perspective of sharing what works with my daughter and what doesn't when interacting with her. Hopefully they'll clue in. If they don't, my daughter will quietly just quit attending.

We also talked about my 14 yr old son who resigned several weeks ago. He asked how we wanted any future contacts to be handled and said whatever we wished is what would be followed. I believe him. I asked him about my other son and when did he find out about his resignation as well. He said he was aware of it (received notification a day or two before) when he met with my wife, but he didn't mention it to her. He didn't feel it was his place. I told him that was the right answer and that I appreciated it. My son hadn't even told me prior to sending it in, but I figured it out.

I shared my story briefly with him. He hadn't heard it before and deliberately hadn't asked. He mentioned several others in the ward/stake (un-named that had their names removed and were very explicit about leaving them the heck alone. He figured he would leave it up to me to initiate if I wanted in case I felt the same way. We talked about the "Satan" label thing and I told him I wear that label with pride. We both laughed. He said that he feels I'm the same Hermey that I was before. The only thing different is that I am now on another path heading the same place, one that was working for me and that was fine. I told him I appreciate the sentiment and feel the same way - that I am still the same person and there isn't a single person in the ward, including those who I know have been less than kind towards us, that couldn't pick up the phone and reach out for assistance at 3 a.m. I would put on my shoes and head out the door, no questions asked. It's who I am and it hasn't changed.

Anyway, that's the update. There will be one more by Sunday. I will return and report.

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Hagoth
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Hagoth » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:28 am

Hermey wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:23 pm
He said that he feels I'm the same Hermey that I was before. The only thing different is that I am now on another path heading the same place, one that was working for me and that was fine.
You should get that in writing, have it notarized and posted on the ward bulletin board.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hermey
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Re: Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,....

Post by Hermey » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:05 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:28 am
Hermey wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:23 pm
He said that he feels I'm the same Hermey that I was before. The only thing different is that I am now on another path heading the same place, one that was working for me and that was fine.
You should get that in writing, have it notarized and posted on the ward bulletin board.
Hahaha!

Margarita
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Re: (2nd Update) - Have no doubt that if you give the Church enough rope,...

Post by Margarita » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:46 pm

I could write something here...but my fingers won't type the anger that I feel about all this. If we were to meet in person...I would still be speechless. What the fluff? Since when is "Cemetary" a huge requirement for being a wonderful daughter..and a daughter of God? I hope she reaps great benefits from her hard work..efforts and many talents. Hugs...

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