I am no longer alone, or why they don't get it

[Hagoth]

I have talked about how I squeaked by the TR interview by getting peremptory advice from the SP about how to pass the bishop interview.

Yesterday Mrs. Hagoth came home from church early with another sister in tow who hadn't been so lucky in the hotseat. It turned out to be the best conversation I have had with a ward member and the discovery that she is on her way out and that her husband is a full-on nonbeliever.

She said she didn't even get past the first question about believing in HF, Jesus & the HG and that the true church has been restored. First of all, why are all of those included in the same question? Anyway, she said she's not completely certain that she has a testimony of the restoration. That was a showstopper (she made a sound like a record player needle being dragged across the record). "You mean you don't have a testimony that Thomas Monson is a prophet of God?" The bishop was shocked. Mind you, this lady is one of the Great Ones in our ward. He told her he was going to help her set up a BoM reading schedule and meet with her weekly until she can answer the question correctly. She told him that she didn't see the point because she knows how her brain works and she doesn't believer in magic. He was shocked.

That was the end of the discussion and she left the bishop with an expression of utter bewilderment on his face. He said, "but you're a really good person..." and named some of the really truly beyond amazing things this lady does (like running and funding an orphanage in a 3rd world country). Of course she will get her testimony back if she reads the BoM and prays; only sinful people lose their testimonies.

The result:
-She will not be able to see her children married in the temple

-The bishop had a great opportunity to help her stay in the church and he blew it (she comes from a mission-field ward where the biggest criterion for a recommend or calling is that you are willing to do it)

-She said she feels so marginalized and unwanted that she can only see it in terms of being pushed out of the church by people who don't care about individuals.

-Mrs. Hagoth was very engaged, sympathetic, understanding and supportive.

-I now know of two people in the ward who are disaffected. I'm no longer the lone wolf.

[Linked]

Wow! That is awesome to not be alone. It's too bad for the church that it can't see what it is doing.

[Corsair]

Congratulations on finding a skeptical connection. It's really reassuring to find someone who validates your beliefs. I suspect that this is the same feeling that a "golden investigator" feels when they meet a couple of LDS missionaries.

[Korihor]

[Sheamus Moore]

Wow, good for her - and you! They just can't NOT suggest reading the BOM as a cure-all, can they - they just go right to that. Boggles the mind. (I admire her lady balls, BTW).

[moksha]

She said she didn't even get past the first question about believing in HF, Jesus & the HG and that the true church has been restored. First of all, why are all of those included in the same question?

It's on a percentage basis. Best three out of four wins.

[Red Ryder]

Shame on me for thinking dirty thoughts.

Wife brings home another lady from church. "Hagoth, this fine sister believes in Polygamy and said an angel with a flaming sword commanded her to be my sister wife!"

Hagoth:

[The Beast]

-I now know of two people in the ward who are disaffected. I'm no longer the lone wolf.

Awesome. It is not good for man to be alone.

[asa]

The problem in part is we conflate separate questions. The question isn't "do you believe that somebody you never met and who never publicly claimed to have received revelation or prophesied is a prophet " . The question is do you sustain him as a prophet etc . That phrase " prophet ,seer and revelator" is in the nature of an ecclesiastical title or a aspirational title not a description of what he really does . I sustain Trump as president of the USA even thought I think he is a lying idiot and doesn't act presidential and can not believe I am stuck with him.No President of the church in the last 100 years has publicly made such a claim of receiving revelation other than being inspired by the HG. Your bishop asked an entirely inappropriate question not included in the TR questions , The handbook is clear he has no right to do that. Finally look at the definition of a "prophet " in the bible dictionary particularly the last sentence or 2. It is that everyone who has a testimony of Jesus is a prophet. By that definition I have no problem answering yes to that particular question even though I know there is a singular lack of revelation among the 15. I also think you can be scrupulously honest and successfully navigate the rest of the questions if you think about it and respond only to the question being asked not the one you think they really want to ask . The TR questions are structured in part to protect the member from their ecclesiastical superior . Pretend you are in Law and Oder and only answer the question yes or no. I feel for your friend . She may of course be better off to see the abuse and hypocrisy that goes on in the name of priesthood authority now rather than later . However If I can be of any help have her email me . I have been on the side asking the questions for decades and hold a current TR myself

[Silver Girl]

What a great story! It's so important not to feel alone, and I'm sure it was comforting to her to have a safe place to share that story. Maybe you, Mrs. Hagoth, and Sister Disaffected and her DH can get together sometime on a double date. One the most healing things for me was finding people in my own ward who were NOM or out completely even though they were sitting in pews. It helps validate that you're not crazy, but the church is definitely insane. She sounds like someone I'd love to meet - she follows her own integrity, and is outspoken.

The bishop's solution of putting her on a schedule to read the BoM is absurd, and it shows how entirely unprepared ward leaders are to deal with disaffected members. Do they somehow think a person in her situation has not yet read that stupid book? And he wants to meet with her until she can "answer the questions correctly"??? Holy crap! Good for her, for telling him that made no sense; it would have been a waste of time for her, and frustrating for him.

Did she happen to tell you how her shelf crashed? I love that she was one of the ward's stars - so many of the "brightest and best" are leaving. It's horrible that she won't be able to see her loved ones get married, but things can change, and maybe they won't go for the temple thing anyway. Undoubtedly, word will get out on her defection, and people who are like-minded will start surfacing. That's what happened in my former ward.

[Hagoth]

I also think you can be scrupulously honest and successfully navigate the rest of the questions if you think about it and respond only to the question being asked not the one you think they really want to ask.

I agree. You can even preface it (as I have done) with a statement like, "just be aware that the answers I'm giving are according to the way I understand the questions, not necessarily the way you do. The fact that I was able to pass the interview and this poor lady couldn't get any further into the interview really floored me, because I was pretty straightforward with my answers. "I don't believe in a God that is a man on a throne, but I believe that there is more to the universe than what we perceive"... stuff like that. This lady is more believing than I am but she crashed on the authority issue. I think it's because I have a good relationship with the SP and I told my bishop, "I don't know if my answers will be satisfactory to you, but I'm answering the way President X told me I should answer them." (which BTW consists of replacing the words "faith and testimony in" with "hope for.")

However If I can be of any help have her email me . I have been on the side asking the questions for decades and hold a current TR myself.

Thanks, Asa. If the opportunity arises I will do that.

[Hagoth]

It helps validate that you're not crazy, but the church is definitely insane. She sounds like someone I'd love to meet - she follows her own integrity, and is outspoken.

Yup!

Did she happen to tell you how her shelf crashed? I love that she was one of the ward's stars - so many of the "brightest and best" are leaving.

No, she didn't but that is a conversation I would like to have. It's always a fascinating story.

[Mormorrisey]

It's always good to recognize a fellow traveler, it makes the journey much more pleasant. Hopefully we can all have people in our lives that can share our ideas with, and recognize we're not the only ones refusing to take the crazy pills. While I don't have someone like that in the ward, I can pick up the phone and chat with a number of people who share likeminded thoughts. Glad you have someone close to bounce ideas off of.

[Hermey]

It's always good to recognize a fellow traveler, it makes the journey much more pleasant. Hopefully we can all have people in our lives that can share our ideas with, and recognize we're not the only ones refusing to take the crazy pills. While I don't have someone like that in the ward, I can pick up the phone and chat with a number of people who share likeminded thoughts. Glad you have someone close to bounce ideas off of.

And that's also why the NOM board continues to be the best!

[Hagoth]

The temple recommend interview is where the church really shows its colors. Despite everything that is said outside that room, it's all really about obedience and conformity. First of all, my friend isn't allowed to go to the temple because she doesn't believe Thomas Monson is a literal prophet of God, even though Thomas Monson himself has never claimed that he is any such thing. Then they want to know who you sympathize and affiliate with. Sympathy leads to tolerance, which, as BKP explained, is a trap. You must swear to wear special secret underwear even, and specifically, when you do sweaty yard work. And finally, if you haven't bought your signs and tokens with sufficient money, the saving ordinances aren't available in your price range.

If you fail on any of those tests you are not welcome in the special clubhouse, even if you are the kind of person who adopts multiple children and saves them from dire circumstances and operates an orphanage in a devastated country with your own finances, as my friend does. Yet she's not welcome at her own children's weddings, not by their choice or hers, but because she doesn't meet the conformity test of a governing body of guys in expensive suits.

The more I think about this the more bizarre and gut-churning it becomes.

[MalcolmVillager]

The temple recommend interview is where the church really shows its colors. Despite everything that is said outside that room, it's all really about obedience and conformity. First of all, my friend isn't allowed to go to the temple because she doesn't believe Thomas Monson is a literal prophet of God, even though Thomas Monson himself has never claimed that he is any such thing. Then they want to know who you sympathize and affiliate with. Sympathy leads to tolerance, which, as BKP explained, is a trap. You must swear to wear special secret underwear even, and specifically, when you do sweaty yard work. And finally, if you haven't bought your signs and tokens with sufficient money, the saving ordinances aren't available in your price range.

If you fail on any of those tests you are not welcome in the special clubhouse, even if you are the kind of person who adopts multiple children and saves them from dire circumstances and operates an orphanage in a devastated country with your own finances, as my friend does. Yet she's not welcome at her own children's weddings, not by their choice or hers, but because she doesn't meet the conformity test of a governing body of guys in expensive suits.

The more I think about this the more bizarre and gut-churning it becomes.

What I wouldn't give to have this downloaded with conviction to DW mind. Seriously, I would give a lot.

You nailed it Hagoth!

[StarbucksMom]

The temple recommend interview is where the church really shows its colors. Despite everything that is said outside that room, it's all really about obedience and conformity. First of all, my friend isn't allowed to go to the temple because she doesn't believe Thomas Monson is a literal prophet of God, even though Thomas Monson himself has never claimed that he is any such thing. Then they want to know who you sympathize and affiliate with. Sympathy leads to tolerance, which, as BKP explained, is a trap. You must swear to wear special secret underwear even, and specifically, when you do sweaty yard work. And finally, if you haven't bought your signs and tokens with sufficient money, the saving ordinances aren't available in your price range.

If you fail on any of those tests you are not welcome in the special clubhouse, even if you are the kind of person who adopts multiple children and saves them from dire circumstances and operates an orphanage in a devastated country with your own finances, as my friend does. Yet she's not welcome at her own children's weddings, not by their choice or hers, but because she doesn't meet the conformity test of a governing body of guys in expensive suits.

The more I think about this the more bizarre and gut-churning it becomes.

The church is such a stupid waste of precious time and resources. Stuff like this just proves that they are a completely money hungry (IMO) cult disguised as Christ's church. It's disgusting. Your friend sounds amazing and is doing something beautiful with her life. Too bad the mormon church has their head so far up their greedy
a-- they can't recognize someone sitting right in front of them who emulates everything the Savior stood for.

[Margarita]

Wow....I was so lonely when I first stepped away from the church...I needed an experience like this! You will have her ear..her thoughts ..because you will be needed..promise. Best to all of you!