The Inoculation is Working

[w2mz]

My TBM RM DD is currently at BYU. She called me this evening to excitedly tell me about her religion class called “Foundations of the Restoration”. She is the only one of my kids that knows about my disaffection, so she was eager to tell me about the class because she said that topics are wide open, from seer stones and diving rods, to polygamy, JS drinking, etc.

Apparently, her professor is “super smart” and really engaging. Oh boy. For example, as part of the class she has already had to read 4 of the versions of the first vision and do a compare/contrast between them.

My DD is an intelligent girl, but I’m afraid this class will do nothing but push her deeper in, while convincing her that I am in Satan’s grasp. It is inoculation at work for sure.

Anyway, she asked me for some ideas about a term project. “Anything is fair game” she told me. My first thought was JS teenaged brides and polyandry…

Any suggestions from my NOMies on what I should have her research?

[Red Ryder]

Ask her if she realizes all this stuff was anti-Mormon material years ago? What changed? Why weren't we taught this when we were at BYU?

For her research project, how about Joseph H. Jackson?

The infants on thrones podcast was interesting. Part 1 is a quick 20 minute mini episode.

http://infantsonthrones.com/words-from- ... kson-pt-1/

Shout out to MLF for the recommendation.

[Not Buying It]

Really? "Anything is fair game"? Then she should take her super smart instructor up on his offer and bring in the biggest guns she can find. Sounds like he thinks he is up to it. Here are some suggestions:

Why did God think it was so important for Joseph Smith to marry teenage girls?
Why was he sealed to two dozen women before Emma?
If these things are all OK, why don't we talk about them in our meetings? Why don't the Brethren mention them? Is it because deep down inside we know they weren't OK?
When Heber C. Kimball said he thought no more of taking another wife than buying a cow, how do we square that with the sanctity of marriage, that women are daughters of divine worth, and basic human decency?
Are you (the instructor) willing to public say you think there was nothing wrong with Joseph Smith having relationships with teenage girls?
Why would God want Joseph Smith to marry women who already had believing member husbands (e.g. Nancy Hyde, Sarah Pratt)?
Why should we think it acceptable that Joseph Smith publicly slandered women who rejected his proposals?
Why was it OK for Joseph to lie about practicing polygamy?
Why are we taught the Nauvoo Expositor was publishing lies when so much of what it said was true?
If the Brethren really care about members whose faith has been challenged by these issues, why won't they address them directly?

Geez, I could do this all night. Somebody else probably has suggestions too. I say she makes him put up or shut up and address the hardest questions there are. She'd better be prepared to give references if she does though.

[dogbite]

Why do we teach a monotheistic OT when the Hebrew were polytheists until after Babylon. Jahweh and El were pagan gods.

There were at least six (pagan) Jewish temples. The law of Moses is a much later retroactive rewrite.

All of this contradicts the claims of nephi.

Why does nephi quote deutero Isaiah before it was written. For that matter, why does Christ quote deutero Isaiah and not correct the attribution.

[moksha]

Maybe she could research a religious quandary I have noticed. The traditional wedding vow had a line about "let no man rend asunder what God has joined together", and yet Joseph was continually rending marriages asunder by marrying already married women. What is the excuse they are offering to these BYU students? Does your daughter believe that excuse?

[Corsair]

Anyway, she asked me for some ideas about a term project. “Anything is fair game” she told me. My first thought was JS teenaged brides and polyandry…

I have some skepticism about "anything" being fair game. The Honor Code will loom over any discussion. There are real penalties for expressing certain possible conclusions to these discussions.

[Mormorrisey]

For those interested, here's the manual online. It is interesting, I grant you, how they are incorporating the inoculation in the material.

https://www.lds.org/manual/foundations- ... l?lang=eng

For me, a great research proposal for your DD would be the marriage of Joseph to Fanny Alger in 1834/1835. If this marriage took place BEFORE the restoration of sealing keys, what was the purpose of Joseph marrying Fanny? Actually, I'm still waiting for an answer from a TBM on this one, so if she could figure it out and give an answer to the rest of the group, I'd be most obliged.

[Hagoth]

Miraculous events of the restoration
Compare and contrast contemporary documentation of the following events with the versions that are currently taught in LDS curriculum:

1- The Kirtland Temple dedication
2- The return of Elijah to the Kirtland temple
3- Brigham Young's transformation into Joseph Smith
4- Wilford Woodruff's visitation in the St. George temple by the founding fathers
5- The appearance of Jesus Christ to Lorenzo Snow in the Salt Lake temple

[mooseman]

The evolution of priesthood. How we went from seer stones to keys, one priesthood to two, and from governing ourselves to follow the prophet...
And then compare where we are to satans rejected plan.

[MalcolmVillager]

For me the biggest smoking gun (besides the shifting and evolving narratives and the obvious ulterior motives of JS) are the translation process for BOM, BofA, JS Translation, and even the D&C.

Those things do not match up with what I was taught, or sound logic. The facsimiles are a smoking gun for me. They just do not represent any sort if translation. The scrolls are not if the age of Abraham, so how did his "own hand" write them? Why does the content as translated by actual egyptologists not match a single thing that is in the BofA? Why was Abraham even writing in Egyptian?

I just cannot buy anything of JS translating anything. It is all stories and lies to prop a con in my view.

[Emower]

The evolution of priesthood. How we went from seer stones to keys, one priesthood to two, and from governing ourselves to follow the prophet...
And then compare where we are to satans rejected plan.

This is my biggest issue as well. It is not the easiest to explain or research, but literally everything that is important about the church today is dependent on the priesthood.

[Hermey]

....as part of the class she has already had to read 4 of the versions of the first vision and do a compare/contrast between them.

<snip>

Anyway, she asked me for some ideas about a term project. “Anything is fair game” she told me. My first thought was JS teenaged brides and polyandry…

Any suggestions from my NOMies on what I should have her research?

Why not go with more of the First Vision stories? Add in all of the additional versions (not just the four the Church is okay with talking about), PLUS the 'First Vision accounts by non-members that were all published prior to JS's First Vision.

Additionally, because anything is now fair game, she should be willing and able to discuss any topic. Opportunity knocks, my friend!!

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

The evolution of priesthood. How we went from seer stones to keys, one priesthood to two, and from governing ourselves to follow the prophet...
And then compare where we are to satans rejected plan.

This is my biggest issue as well. It is not the easiest to explain or research, but literally everything that is important about the church today is dependent on the priesthood.

I agree with this one and add my vote as well. The backdating and modifying of the D&C to include the priesthood restoration events when they didn't exist in the book of commandments. As expressed by David Whitmer in his "An Address to all Believer's in Christ" document, also discussed in Greg Prince's book on the priesthood, and page 75 of Rough Stone Rolling.

[Red Ryder]

I don't know why but reading this thread just gave me another emotional reaction and realization it's all made up.

It's all just a charade.

My whole life has been built around this religion and it's demonstrably made up. It's not what it claims to be. At all.

Wow! Not expecting this reaction at all. I didn't think there was anything emotional left inside. Wow.

[Hermey]

I don't know why but reading this thread just gave me another emotional reaction and realization it's all made up.

It's all just a charade.

My whole life has been built around this religion and it's demonstrably made up. It's not what it claims to be. At all.

Wow! Not expecting this reaction at all. I didn't think there was anything emotional left inside. Wow.

^^^And this is why I want my family out. I want my children to have and experience life as full as it can be.

Officially, my two sons are out. My daughter no longer believes and my wife is beginning to feel some of the weight on her shelf.

[crossmyheart]

Miraculous events of the restoration
Compare and contrast contemporary documentation of the following events with the versions that are currently taught in LDS curriculum:

1- The Kirtland Temple dedication
2- The return of Elijah to the Kirtland temple
3- Brigham Young's transformation into Joseph Smith
4- Wilford Woodruff's visitation in the St. George temple by the founding fathers
5- The appearance of Jesus Christ to Lorenzo Snow in the Salt Lake temple

and why nothing like this has happened in over 100 years?

[Hagoth]

Take an event and report what ALL of the witnesses said. For some reason the Correlation Committee loves to talk about angels and tongues of fire at the Kirtland temple dedication, but not so much about booze and flying steam boats.

[mooseman]

The evolution of priesthood. How we went from seer stones to keys, one priesthood to two, and from governing ourselves to follow the prophet...
And then compare where we are to satans rejected plan.

This is my biggest issue as well. It is not the easiest to explain or research, but literally everything that is important about the church today is dependent on the priesthood.

Ditto. I literally felt i had a handle on so many issues, ways to give brother joseph and the other prophets a break until these pieces fell in place. Then i saw the gaslighting, the retro fitting, the consolidation of power for powers sake, and then it just didnt work. I couldn't say "well they make mistakes...they see though a foggy window" or "god was using his believes to do a great work., its the principles not the storyline" ect i had leaned on since i was 15. This line if inquiry shows, without doubt (i think) the while thing was made up for power, sex and money. I have no idea how any apologist can explain or twist it away.

[Give It Time]

Some things I found difficult to explain away were the original version of the Book Of Mormon. I think there's a copy in the Orem library. It has backwoods language in it. For example, Nephi and Zoram was a-running. There other thing was, I know the man is dead, but I think one of the most interesting things you can do is get an objective mental health expert to do a forensic analysis of his behavior. Interesting stuff, there. I actually read some when I was TBM. They were difficult to take and I didn't read them all. I found them offensive, but had to admit they had good points.

[vankimber]

I would like to see a study of cases in the past when people were excommunicated for telling the truth about issues that the church wanted kept secret, only to have the essays show that those folks had been right all along.