No callings for you! Updated

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Linked
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by Linked » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:44 pm

I'm so sorry the church and the culture have taken so much from you. Your post made me cry for you. And for my wife. And for me. They take so much and believe it is a gift.

Hang in there as you work through the fallout from this calling and them not including you.
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Red Ryder
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:19 pm

Sorry MM that it hurts so bad.

I've been reflecting a lot lately on the hurt my wife has been feeling due to my disbelief and frankly I'm done tip toeing around it. I've done it for over 10 years now and have taken a back seat while the church interjects itself into my marriage, my children's lives, and even my bedroom! I can tell you it will never go away.

So I'm done. I'm done trying to make a mixed faith marriage work and go along to play along. I'm done attending tithing settlement for the sake of showing all family members are present. I'm done sticking around after SM. I'm done playing games with the church. It's their truth that doesn't stand up to scrutiny so call me back when it does.

It's time to take off the ballet shoes and stop tip toeing around! It's time to put flip flops on and kick back and relax! I'm now going to treat the church like my wife's hobby. She can go and partake all she wants the same way I can go golfing while she stays home and does her thing.

Glass Shelf used to always say to just rip off the band aid and deal with it. May I suggest we do the same. If our spouses can't tolerate it then what have we lost? I've already lost over 10 years to the church pretending just to get along and not make my parents cry. I'm done trying.
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Stig
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by Stig » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:21 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:19 pm
Sorry MM that it hurts so bad.

I've been reflecting a lot lately on the hurt my wife has been feeling due to my disbelief and frankly I'm done tip toeing around it. I've done it for over 10 years now and have taken a back seat while the church interjects itself into my marriage, my children's lives, and even my bedroom! I can tell you it will never go away.

So I'm done. I'm done trying to make a mixed faith marriage work and go along to play along. I'm done attending tithing settlement for the sake of showing all family members are present. I'm done sticking around after SM. I'm done playing games with the church. It's their truth that doesn't stand up to scrutiny so call me back when it does.

It's time to take off the ballet shoes and stop tip toeing around! It's time to put flip flops on and kick back and relax! I'm now going to treat the church like my wife's hobby. She can go and partake all she wants the same way I can go golfing while she stays home and does her thing.

Glass Shelf used to always say to just rip off the band aid and deal with it. May I suggest we do the same. If our spouses can't tolerate it then what have we lost? I've already lost over 10 years to the church pretending just to get along and not make my parents cry. I'm done trying.
Amen, brother.
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by Anon70 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:28 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:19 pm
Sorry MM that it hurts so bad.

I've been reflecting a lot lately on the hurt my wife has been feeling due to my disbelief and frankly I'm done tip toeing around it. I've done it for over 10 years now and have taken a back seat while the church interjects itself into my marriage, my children's lives, and even my bedroom! I can tell you it will never go away.

So I'm done. I'm done trying to make a mixed faith marriage work and go along to play along. I'm done attending tithing settlement for the sake of showing all family members are present. I'm done sticking around after SM. I'm done playing games with the church. It's their truth that doesn't stand up to scrutiny so call me back when it does.

It's time to take off the ballet shoes and stop tip toeing around! It's time to put flip flops on and kick back and relax! I'm now going to treat the church like my wife's hobby. She can go and partake all she wants the same way I can go golfing while she stays home and does her thing.

Glass Shelf used to always say to just rip off the band aid and deal with it. May I suggest we do the same. If our spouses can't tolerate it then what have we lost? I've already lost over 10 years to the church pretending just to get along and not make my parents cry. I'm done trying.
I love this and I hope for this/make plans for this for myself that I hope to implement soon.

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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by alas » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:01 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:19 pm
Sorry MM that it hurts so bad.

I've been reflecting a lot lately on the hurt my wife has been feeling due to my disbelief and frankly I'm done tip toeing around it. I've done it for over 10 years now and have taken a back seat while the church interjects itself into my marriage, my children's lives, and even my bedroom! I can tell you it will never go away.

So I'm done. I'm done trying to make a mixed faith marriage work and go along to play along. I'm done attending tithing settlement for the sake of showing all family members are present. I'm done sticking around after SM. I'm done playing games with the church. It's their truth that doesn't stand up to scrutiny so call me back when it does.

It's time to take off the ballet shoes and stop tip toeing around! It's time to put flip flops on and kick back and relax! I'm now going to treat the church like my wife's hobby. She can go and partake all she wants the same way I can go golfing while she stays home and does her thing.

Glass Shelf used to always say to just rip off the band aid and deal with it. May I suggest we do the same. If our spouses can't tolerate it then what have we lost? I've already lost over 10 years to the church pretending just to get along and not make my parents cry. I'm done trying.
Yeah, this. I was a quiet under the radar nonbeliever for about thirt years. I finally reached the point that I cared more for my own sanity than my husband's happiness or staying married. I was tired of pretending and I had decided that rather than being basically good and something I could put up with, that the church caused more harm than good. I guess I was alright when it just hurt me, but when they start hurting my children, well mama dragons don't like that. So, informed my D h that I din not believe the whole bit about JS, or modern prophets and that I was going to continue going to church. Just like that, dumped my non belief on him and informed him I would not be attending with him any longer.

End result: I am much happier. My DH can see I am much happier and does not want me going back to church. Really, I have offered to go back and he says he would rather I didn't because it would only be a matter of time before the crap got to me again.

Much better on this side of the divide.

I secretly think he is almost NOM, but still needs to sort through the crap on the floor where his shelf used to be. But I don't think I will tell him that. I once told him that his values were more Democrat than mine, and he had no business being a registered Republican. He argued with me and it took tRump to get him to vote Democrat. So, I will let him figure out what he believes because he doesn't take it well when I know him better than he does. "But, but, but, all my friends are Mormon Republicans, so I have to be that too."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:53 pm

Like Linked, there goes my posting holiday.

This one bugs me. The last two callings Sis M has received, they didn't bother informing me either. It's annoying, regardless of the reason why. Is it because I'M the one who'll say no? It's just inconvenient to meet with two of us? They don't want to bother me with their petty details? That any objections I might have don't matter? Whatever the reason, it's crap.

What makes it worse, MM, for you, is that it's simply largely how women tend to be treated in the church. The priesthood is in charge, he's the head of the home, so what objections could you possibly have? I'd be pretty annoyed too, and depending how steamed you are about it, why not let them know?
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by alas » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:39 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:53 pm
Like Linked, there goes my posting holiday.

This one bugs me. The last two callings Sis M has received, they didn't bother informing me either. It's annoying, regardless of the reason why. Is it because I'M the one who'll say no? It's just inconvenient to meet with two of us? They don't want to bother me with their petty details? That any objections I might have don't matter? Whatever the reason, it's crap.

What makes it worse, MM, for you, is that it's simply largely how women tend to be treated in the church. The priesthood is in charge, he's the head of the home, so what objections could you possibly have? I'd be pretty annoyed too, and depending how steamed you are about it, why not let them know?
Yes, they need to start hearing that women object to being treated like children. I would be honest about the fact that you might have raised objections.

And for the record, I have never been asked *with* my husband. The best I ever got was called in after they had already talked to him and he had said yes, so that I could say I sustained him. It was not to see if I objected, obviously I had no right to that, but just so that I could tell them I sustained him. But for my bigger callings, he was asked FIRST, then I was called in to see if I would accept, after he had already said yes. It was like he was the only human in the family and I was his pet or maybe his cow and they had to get his permission to use me before even asking me. Once I was tempted to tell them that if they were going to treat me like a child, then "no" because a child cannot be primary president. But the whole time I was in the calling they continued to treat me like a child, sort of like the 12 y o who is president of his deacons quorum. It was sort of eye opening as to how Mormon men think about women.

I thought this whole problem was getting better, but then they called a member of the 12 without asking his wife.

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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by wtfluff » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:56 am

I remember back in the day being "called in" as a couple when The Corporation wanted to "offer" my wife a "calling", but being asked alone when I was "offered" a "calling".

I would always poke my wife about the gender dynamics in those situations. It bothered her a bit.

Now that I'm an evil apostate, I don't get invited to "calling" interviews with the wife, and I have no say whatsoever in any such matters. My wife probably likes the fact that "leadership" ignores me now, and doesn't feel the need to get my "permission" to give her an assignment.


Edit: I guess I should actually finish the thought that made me want to contribute to the thread: When I was initially not included in my wife's interviews / callings, I was a bit upset. I've gotten over it at this point, but it does hurt initially.
Last edited by wtfluff on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:04 am

Has anyone started a spouse exchange system yet where dissatisfied interfaith couples could switch out? Oh wait Joseph tried the involuntary version of that. :lol:

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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by MoPag » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:07 am

MerrieMiss wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:00 am
So I wasn't considered important enough to consult about this.

Basically, after Gospel Doctrine, my husband was pulled aside and given the calling, he and the Stake person who gave the call ran into me in the hall, husband told me, I asked if they need me for anything (hint, hint) I was told no, so I went to RS (left after about thirty minutes and sat in the car). They did not try to look for me, the stake person did not tell him to talk to his wife. My husband said he felt bad about it all through EQ.

I thought I felt better about things last night. We talked about it, but I woke up livid. And I probably shouldn't have, but I blew up at him before he went to work. (It probably wasn't a good time, but is there ever a good time????) I think it's the first time I've ever put the words lie, sham, and church together in the same sentence in front of him. "It is a lie, it is a sham, that what I think as the wife is important. It is a show, and they didn't even have the decency to pretend otherwise." He said it was sorry and it was his fault. And I suppose he could have said something like, "I think I need to talk to my wife," but let's be honest - the person with the power, the person from the stake, the one who knew what was coming, didn't think I was important. And my husband feeling bad about it is just protecting the church and making excuses for it. Makes me angrier still.

I wouldn't have said no, I might have voiced my concern over the time factor, but I wouldn't have said no. I know it's important to him. But it's just one more instance of me being the person who enables my husband to live the kind of life he lives. His life is moving on while I just sit behind the lines and make certain there's dinner every night, that the bathrooms are clean, that the kids are vaccinated and learning manners and their ABCs and that everyone has clean underwear.

And I don't know what to do about it. Should I be submissive and just go along with it, like I have so far with everything else? Wasn't this the promise I made? Do I wait out the next twenty years until the kids are gone and hope that I'm still around and healthy enough to pursue something, anything, that makes me into a person? Or will there be mission calls, and couple temple assignments or other crap that I'll be expected to do? Or, should I be like my mother-in-law who unabashedly seems to be waiting for her husband to die so she can move on with her life?

I also told him the entire reason I got my TR renewed was for him. That I didn't care about a stupid meaningless piece of paper and that "those people" had no right to say whether I was a good person or worthy of anything, it was meaningless to me, but yet agin, it was another thing I did for him.

I thought things had been getting a lot better between us recently. We'd had a lot of really good discussions and I thought we were coming to a better place of understanding. I was also keeping my mouth shut about a lot of things because we were going to talk about the possibility of paying net tithing and not gross at the end of the month and that was a battle I wanted to win.

It's just one more time that I bow my head and say yes. Damn it, I'm mad.
((HUGS)) MM!!

That was super sh!tty of them not to ask you! Stake person is an a$$. Next time you see him, give him some severe resting b*tch face.

Resting b*tch face is the most effective tool I have found in battling the penishood. When I see my ex bishop who tried to make me to stay with my cheating, abusive ex; I just look down my nose at him and think "you are a sad, sorry little man. And all of your 'power and authority from God' is an embarrassing, pathetic joke." And it must show on my face because, he is afraid of me now.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by crazyhamster » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:01 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:19 pm
Sorry MM that it hurts so bad.

I've been reflecting a lot lately on the hurt my wife has been feeling due to my disbelief and frankly I'm done tip toeing around it. I've done it for over 10 years now and have taken a back seat while the church interjects itself into my marriage, my children's lives, and even my bedroom! I can tell you it will never go away.

So I'm done. I'm done trying to make a mixed faith marriage work and go along to play along. I'm done attending tithing settlement for the sake of showing all family members are present. I'm done sticking around after SM. I'm done playing games with the church. It's their truth that doesn't stand up to scrutiny so call me back when it does.

It's time to take off the ballet shoes and stop tip toeing around! It's time to put flip flops on and kick back and relax! I'm now going to treat the church like my wife's hobby. She can go and partake all she wants the same way I can go golfing while she stays home and does her thing.

Glass Shelf used to always say to just rip off the band aid and deal with it. May I suggest we do the same. If our spouses can't tolerate it then what have we lost? I've already lost over 10 years to the church pretending just to get along and not make my parents cry. I'm done trying.
Well said, RR. While timing may be important, I think expressing your true feelings in a relationship can only improve things.

@MerrieMiss - if it’s any consolation (and I know it’s not much), this type of crap goes on in every ward. I’ve been released before without even being there and even being told about it beforehand. It’s very insulting.

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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by blazerb » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:18 am

MerrieMiss wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:00 am
So I wasn't considered important enough to consult about this.
. . .
It's just one more time that I bow my head and say yes. Damn it, I'm mad.
I think you had reason to be angry. In my limited experience in callings where I extended callings, I was trained to ask any married person to bring their spouse. The feelings of the spouse were always considered, and both had to agree. This practice may be somewhat new, and obviously it is not uniform throughout the church. I also remember the days when men were extended callings without consulting the wife, but any calling to a woman had to be approved first by her husband. I hated being asked about callings for my wife. I was glad that our stake ended that in favor of a more egalitarian practice.

Good luck.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by MerrieMiss » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:30 pm

Thank you to everyone for your comments. I appreciate them all very much.

I love my husband and I love my family. I just hate to see us pulled in different directions. In the end, I think this calling will be painful for our family, but will probably make my husband miserable. I can't say that that is what I want, although there's going to be some misery involved whether it's me being miserable and in the disbelief closet, ripping off the band aid and making DH miserable, or him simply being miserable because fulfilling these types of callings is simply miserable period.

I'm somewhat surprised I wasn't asked. I don't believe anyone at the church really cares what I think or feel; I've always believed it's a patronizing show of pretending that a wife's opinion is important. Of course, as Alas points out, since the precedent's been set at the apostle level, why on earth would I be asked what I think? If anything, the church just backs up my assertion that it doesn't respect or care about women or families. Unfortunately, DH lives by the motto, "the church is perfect the people aren't." Maybe a leadership position will begin to change that.

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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by MerrieMiss » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:48 pm

One other thing -

I have a friend whose husband has this same calling. He also got a promotion at work which requires a of of travel. She takes care of the family all weekend while he does church stuff. She takes care of the children all week while he's out of town. She recently had to get a babysitter to put the kids to bed one night so she could go out and get something done. I was wondering at the time how she felt about it all: How does it feel to see your husband get promoted at work and moving ahead professionally, with you to take care of everything so he can focus on his work? How does it feel to do the same thing so he can advance within the church hierarchy, with you in the background, getting the kids ready for church, sitting with them, taking them to their activities, putting them to bed, spending Sundays alone, etc. I wanted to ask her, but we are not close enough to discuss such heretical questions.

Well, now I'm in the same position. It's the kind of thing that years ago would have made me feel like I wasn't good enough, that by asking the question I wasn't spiritual or good enough, that I just didn't get it. Now, instead of feeling sorry for myself, I feel more sorry for her. In a sympathetic way, although perhaps she's really happy, I don't know. I mean, we're both stuck in this mormon SAHM box, but I know I'm in the box, I just need to figure out how to get out. I've thought about it for the past few days, and whatever my husband is doing, I just have to keep on doing what I want to do. If he's at a meeting one Sunday morning and I want to go to the Methodist church, it's really not my problem he isn't coming with us. If I want to stay up late and get some work done so I can enter the paid workforce, so what about our together time. I'm really tired of carrying the emotional work of a relationship.

And I feel like a self-centered, pretentious jerk for writing that. But I wonder if that isn't part of the problem too - why should I feel bad about pursuing my own needs? Why do I feel the need to defend myself? I don't know, I ask myself these questions all of the time, and I never really get anywhere.

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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by alas » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:28 am

MerrieMiss wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:48 pm
One other thing -

I have a friend whose husband has this same calling. He also got a promotion at work which requires a of of travel. She takes care of the family all weekend while he does church stuff. She takes care of the children all week while he's out of town. She recently had to get a babysitter to put the kids to bed one night so she could go out and get something done. I was wondering at the time how she felt about it all: How does it feel to see your husband get promoted at work and moving ahead professionally, with you to take care of everything so he can focus on his work? How does it feel to do the same thing so he can advance within the church hierarchy, with you in the background, getting the kids ready for church, sitting with them, taking them to their activities, putting them to bed, spending Sundays alone, etc. I wanted to ask her, but we are not close enough to discuss such heretical questions.

Well, now I'm in the same position. It's the kind of thing that years ago would have made me feel like I wasn't good enough, that by asking the question I wasn't spiritual or good enough, that I just didn't get it. Now, instead of feeling sorry for myself, I feel more sorry for her. In a sympathetic way, although perhaps she's really happy, I don't know. I mean, we're both stuck in this mormon SAHM box, but I know I'm in the box, I just need to figure out how to get out. I've thought about it for the past few days, and whatever my husband is doing, I just have to keep on doing what I want to do. If he's at a meeting one Sunday morning and I want to go to the Methodist church, it's really not my problem he isn't coming with us. If I want to stay up late and get some work done so I can enter the paid workforce, so what about our together time. I'm really tired of carrying the emotional work of a relationship.

And I feel like a self-centered, pretentious jerk for writing that. But I wonder if that isn't part of the problem too - why should I feel bad about pursuing my own needs? Why do I feel the need to defend myself? I don't know, I ask myself these questions all of the time, and I never really get anywhere.
The church does a really good job of praising women for self sacrifice. The trouble is, that when you marry young, and self sacrifice during early marriage so hubby can finish school, then as a young mother to give your children the best start, then as a mother of school aged kids because hubby is busy getting ahead in his career, the kids are busy with school, and they all need you to cook, clean, wash clothes, and drive them where they need to be, pretty soon this self sacrifice has you totally sacrificed out. You no longer have any self left and you resent that you are the servant of the rest of the family so that they can all have a great life, while you do all the drudgery they don't want to bother with but needs to be done.

But think about what you learn at church. That story about the woman who was injured or something that made ironing the clothing very painful is a good example. The husband sacrificed his lunch so he could save up and get her an ironing machine. My grandmother had the kind of machine he was talking about, and if regular ironing was painful, that would be too. So, great he sacrificed and went hungry so eventually he could lessen her pain, when he could have totally eliminated her pain by doing the ironing himself. But no ne ever thought of somebody else doing the ironing. Nope, the kids can't do it--too busy with school. Nope, hubby can't do it--too busy with work. So let mom stay in pain for years while he saves up. Why not just skip his lunch and take the ironing out to a professional laundry?

No matter what, the gender stereotypes must be honored. Mom sacrifices any career aspirations because she has to do the grunt work of running a home. Mom claims to like chicken wings to give the growing children more protein, (then mom ends up miscarrying a kid because of malnutrition--but then obviously the family can't feed one more kid anyway.) Mom goes through the cold winter with no coat so teen daughter can have a prom dress. Mom passes up a promotion at work so that dad can take his smaller promotion that requires the family to move. Did I say, mom passes up a promotion? well not quite, see she had to quit her job and move but she never ever told hubby because she was happy to make the sacrifice. See, we are raised on stories of women sacrificing for the well being of everyone else, because that is just woman's role, to always put everybody else first.

So, warn hubby that you want a life. And then do what you need to do in order to win back your self that has been sacrificed on the motherhood alter.

At first it is going to feel very selfish. There is an old book I found nice that is called The Art of Selfishness. He said that people, but mostly women, are taught that to meet your own needs is selfish. But really, if we don't meet our needs, we shrivel up and die, and have nothing left to give others. He also said that others will call you selfish when you take care of yourself first, because they want you to sacrifice yourself for them, but really, it is them who is being selfish.

So, learn to be a little more selfish. I mean look at the story of the mom who went without a coat. The girl's prom dress was not a NEED, it was a want. So, mom went without a need to give her daughter a want, and the husband stood up in sacrament meeting and bragged about what a good wife he has. It wasn't the husband walking to work all winter to give the child a dress she wanted.

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MoPag
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by MoPag » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:33 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:28 am
Mom sacrifices any career aspirations because she has to do the grunt work of running a home. Mom claims to like chicken wings to give the growing children more protein, (then mom ends up miscarrying a kid because of malnutrition--but then obviously the family can't feed one more kid anyway.) Mom goes through the cold winter with no coat so teen daughter can have a prom dress. Mom passes up a promotion at work so that dad can take his smaller promotion that requires the family to move. Did I say, mom passes up a promotion? well not quite, see she had to quit her job and move but she never ever told hubby because she was happy to make the sacrifice. See, we are raised on stories of women sacrificing for the well being of everyone else, because that is just woman's role, to always put everybody else first.
OMG please tell me these stories aren't real!! :shock: But they sound too Mormon not to have been shared in F&T or some misguided Ensign article. I remember the horrible ironing machine story form the Ensign. These sacrifices aren't smart sacrifices. They show poor/reckless judgment. So the church gets to tell women to sacrifice themselves and be stupid about it. Ughhh I haaaate church!!!!

alas wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:28 am
So, warn hubby that you want a life. And then do what you need to do in order to win back your self that has been sacrificed on the motherhood alter.
Go get 'em MM! Go kick some a$$!!
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Red Ryder
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Re: No callings for you! Updated

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:01 pm

I love outdated stories about gender roles! They make the 90 year old church leaders sound so old fashioned. In Mormonism, Sister June Cleaver always looks refreshed, happy, well dressed, and never horny, while cooking, cleaning, and washing clothes for the Ward, Wally, and the Beaver! What's not to love about these women, said all 15 apostles?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

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