I realized that there was no need for women

[MerrieMiss]

Alas posted somewhere about fMH being dead. It pretty much is, but I’ve been thinking a lot about different feminist issues recently, and so I may post some of them here once in a while. Here's the first, and I realize that many people may not agree with it, and that's okay.

I had an epiphany when my youngest was an infant.

I was in the RS presidency while I was pregnant and after he was born. During that time I would come before class and set up the chairs, change the clock five minutes ahead (so we’d actually end on time), and afterward I would pick up hymn books and chairs. I did this because I was in the presidency but also because I was a person who was using the facility and when I use something, I do my part to clean up and put things away.

The YM would come in after RS and start putting away the chairs with me. Women would tell me that I didn’t have to. While nine months pregnant or holding a small newborn, I’d pick up hymn books that were left on the floor. And I began to wonder why the women around me felt entitled to simply walk away (or more often, hang out and chat while others around them did the work - I realize some women were off to get their kids, but many just stood around). I wasn’t angry about it, I was truly wondering why.

Before I was pregnant I’d come to church early (because we are early to everything!) with my husband and help set up chairs because it has to be done. After I had the baby I would sit and people watch and I noticed something: all the men and YM and primary aged children (boys and girls) would help set up the chairs, but no women did. They were there, but they sat in their rows staring aimlessly ahead while others did all the work.

I noticed it was YM who stood by the doors and handed out programs. It was YM who sat by the doors and opened and closed them. The YM passed the sacrament. The men of the ward conducted the meeting. And after church, it was the men who cleaned everything up, emptied garbage, picked up hymnbooks, put away chairs.

And I realized that women, specifically young women, weren’t needed. At all. The entire meeting could be run without them. Even the utilitarian things, like cleaning up, were done by men.

The more I thought about it, I realized YM home taught. They collected fast offerings. The older ones went out with the missionaries. And the YW…did nothing. It isn’t until women become adults that they are given responsibilities and then I was amused how many meetings I went to that revolved around how to engage the 18 year olds/YSA women/young married women, making them feel wanted in RS and as visiting teachers. “Why would they want to do any of that?” I thought. “They’ve never had to be engaged at anything meaningful or useful.” I also wondered what happened to women that young girls wanted to help, but by the time they became YW age, they were content to let others do the work for them.

It was a breakthrough moment for me. I’m at the point now where I really don’t care because I would just as soon not even be there and I don’t see any point in participating anyway.

But I believe community is important and I believe churches can be extremely effective at creating community. However, one aspect of creating a good and strong community is making each member useful and necessary and this is obviously not the case, for many reasons.

Some people, TBMs mostly, would argue that this is the gendered nature of things. Women make treats for activities, have babies, and teach primary. Men do the rest because putting away a chair is heavy work and unladylike. I suppose one may argue that women have a crappy enough time as Mormons that they should get a break from having to clean up after meetings or put away the chair they sat in.

I guess the problem I have with it, and I’ve said it elsewhere is this: if we want women in the church to stop acting like little girls, they need to grow up and begin acting like adults. Everywhere else in my life, I clean up after myself. When I’m at a concert, I pick up whatever programs or garbage I have and take care of it. When I go to my weekly meetups, I help put the tables and chairs back. When I get to music rehearsal early, I help put the chairs up and I put mine away at the end. I do this because I am an adult, not a child. I don’t expect others to take care of me and pick up after me. The childlike attitude of Mormon women is apparent even in the little things.

(I want to make it clear I am not blaming Mormon women for being treated like children. But there is a learned feeling of helplessness, there's the placing of woman on a pedestal, all contributing to women behaving like a child who comes and goes as she pleases and isn't responsible for cleaning up after herself. And while I am not blaming Mormon women, I think it's important that the ones who want to be treated like adults take a look at themselves and even the small things they do which are childlike behaviors.)

[alas]

I was one to always pitch in and help, and I cannot count the number of times, I literally had chairs taken out of my hands and was told that it was not necessary for me to help. At least as far as the visual things like putting away chairs. The church men seemed perfectly willing to let me do the behind the scene things. I could baby sit for someone's 5 preschool brats while 9 months pregnant. I could cook meals for 200 people. I could scrub toilets. I could put in 40 hours a week as RSP. But boy, lift a finger at the church building, when there were people around, and the men would jump in to make sure the women look like pampered devas.

So, I think there is for sure something in Mormon culture, but from my experience it is not that the women want to sit and do nothing, because the behind the scenes work is done by the women to a much greater extent than by the men. They even joke that if you want a party for the elder's quorum, put the RS in charge of it.

But I totally agree that if the church wants to keep the young women, it needs to give them something meaningful to do. Why can't they be put to work ushering, or passing out songbooks, or something. Recently there was a blog that I read saying that the YM go HT, and out with missionaries, and yet the YW don't go visiting teaching. Personally I don't think visiting teaching should be done by teenagers even with an adult companion, because visiting teaching is where the ward finds out who has no food in the house or 90% of the needs the ward might be able to help with, and I think that is because the woman to woman contact is more likely to have problems reported than if 14 year olds were along. But the YW need to have some way of contributing.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I think this is pretty insightful, especially about YW. I had never thought about that as a problem- is there really no job in the church for YW?

My, who wife is very TBM and a fairly new stay at home mom, recently told me that she's been really happy with the kind of service she's been involved in lately. She's been to visit and help sick people, taught lessons, organized communications, and participated in real service for many. So, I don't think it really has to be that way. Of course, she's also the kind who, like you, wouldn't let the men do all the work, and who would ask for a calling if the ward hasn't given her one.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

Alas- I bet you are right. There is a public chivalry element to it. If a group of men see women putting away the chairs or something similar, they'll jump right in. Is it to be seen as uber-righteous? Maybe. Maybe it's just because it was an obvious, easy to see need. The other things you mention that are done behind the scenes aren't so easy to see, so no one impulsively steps in to help. Of course, no men will experience any shame for not helping with those behind the scenes "womens'" projects, either, as they would if they were to stand around while women put the chairs away.

[Hagoth]

if we want women in the church to stop acting like little girls, they need to grow up and begin acting like adults... The childlike attitude of Mormon women is apparent even in the little things.

Bingo. This is a a sad but true observation, MerrieMiss. When I look around my ward at the women who seem to be most regarded as model LDS women I see women who seem to talk and act like little girls. Most of the talks I hear by women in conference make me cringe because they sound shallow and childish. Well, actually, most of the talks I hear from men in conference make me cringe too, and some (but a much smaller percentage) for exactly the same reason.

We all know strong, brilliant women who would make amazing speakers and leaders but we don't seem to hear as much from them. I would gladly transfer my priesthood to one of them and let her run with it. Otherwise, it's pretty much going to waste on me.

[Jeffret]

Excellent observations! A number of things I hadn't recognized before.

Much of what you observe has to with magnifying and reinforcing the priesthood. In other words, preparing boys to accept their privileged positions of public recognition and girls to accept their submissive, quiet positions. In order to make sure that the priesthood is properly trained in its important position, boys are given specific assigned tasks and responsibilities as they mature. Girls lack any specific public tasks, as they prepare to become pregnant, give birth, and stay quietly at home caring for children and husband. As a deacon, a boy is given very visible, public roles in the worship service, assigned duties during the week, and various tasks where they can be noticed. As a teacher, a boy retains those responsibilities and has additional ones added. In a large ward with lots of youth, the teacher-aged boy may not have as much visible tasks on a constant basis, but he is expected to fulfill the deacon role whenever needed. Once he becomes 16, he is ordained a priest and has a very significant, visible role in the worship service. He is sent out as a junior companion in home teaching to give guidance to those much his senior. (It doesn't really work that way, but that's what the practice is teaching him.) On the other hand a girl, if she works hard, may get recognized for her Personal Progress achievements. Though not as much as a boy will for similar achievements. She can only get recognized for what she does, whereas he gets recognized for what he is (or the genitalia he has).

This disparity is reflected in the names of their different age categories. The girls are named Beehives, Mia Maids, and Laurels. They sound nice but have no real significance. The boys are deacons, teachers, and priests. Even though these terms bear little relation to the way they are used in the rest of Christianity, they certainly evoke a sense of meaning, responsibility, and power. A 14 year old boy is a Teacher, a misnomer if there ever was one, but that is certainly a much more lofty and significant a title than a Mia Maid.

A lot of effort and thought in the Church goes into inculcating and fortifying these differences. Church leaders from the ward level all the way up pay a great deal of attention to strengthening the priesthood, from Priesthood Preview when a boy is 11 years old, into Deacons, Teachers, Priests and up into the adult ranks. The girls are taught to honor and revere the priesthood and the boys who hold it. They have no equivalent responsibilities. They aren't being groomed to have the public power and authority.

For the most part, the socialization works. Women have a lot of responsibilities behind the scenes. Girls learn and accept their places and recognize the important activity of giving birth to a child. They recognize that gives them a great deal of importance. But in significant ways that means they don't have significant tasks to perform until they become a mother. Women in the Church, and other patriarchal societies, aren't really grown up until they are married and have given birth. And not even really then as the society tries to keep them in a more submissive, child-like state.

When the girls grow up with a big enough discrepancy between how they are treated at church and elsewhere, then they start to notice it. They see that they can get recognition in school, sports, work, and other activities equivalently (or at least better) to boys, yet at Church they get no acknowledgement and no opportunity to contribute beyond girls. Some of them will lose interest in church things, particularly as they age out of Young Women's. There, at least, they could contribute amongst their female friends. As they are pushed into Relief Society, they aren't really recognized as adults yet. They have little opportunity to contribute.

The Church has put a lot of effort into training the boys and making them feel valued and important. Historically, boys and men have had more freedom and flexibility to leave. They're not as tied to the raising of young and dependent upon community. As the gulf widens between how girls experience the church subculture and the greater society, I think the Church will experience increased difficulty in retaining the girls and women.

[Give It Time]

When I was growing up, I was taught that if there's work, pitch in and do it. Many hands make light work. In my first married ward in California, both genders did tables and chairs. Same goes for Arizona. I felt badly, because in both of those wards, I was either pregnant or had young children and stayed on the sidelines with them to keep them safe. I promised myself I would get back to helping as soon as I could.

That happened to coincidewith a move to Utah County and it is exactly as you describe. I pitched in to help to keep that promise to myself and because of the work ethic my parents taught me. Many hands make light work and we can all go home sooner. However, I felt resistance from the men and boys. Most never said anything, but I was the only woman who helped for many years. I did have a few offers to take chairs for me and I always refused. The women chatting in the hall would look at me sideways and, yes, I did think they were slacking off. So, I guess that's all fair.

I agree with you, though. I don't blame the women, but we have done a certain amount top ourselves. As Roseanne Barr said, no one is going to hand you power. I think you've got a very good point about what's the point of getting the young women engaged and anxiously so in participating. Really, Sacrament could run completely without us. We could just choose not to attend. The buildings could be made smaller and less expensive. Fewer manuals. Fewer resources. The church could then truly be the boys club we've always known it to be and, gentlemen, you would get your own meeting room with the cushioned chairs.

I say we do it.

[alas]

if we want women in the church to stop acting like little girls, they need to grow up and begin acting like adults... The childlike attitude of Mormon women is apparent even in the little things.

Bingo. This is a a sad but true observation, MerrieMiss. When I look around my ward at the women who seem to be most regarded as model LDS women I see women who seem to talk and act like little girls. Most of the talks I hear by women in conference make me cringe because they sound shallow and childish. Well, actually, most of the talks I hear from men in conference make me cringe too, and some (but a much smaller percentage) for exactly the same reason.

We all know strong, brilliant women who would make amazing speakers and leaders but we don't seem to hear as much from them. I would gladly transfer my priesthood to one of them and let her run with it. Otherwise, it's pretty much going to waste on me.

Before you blame women for using the "primary voice" consider who picks the women who give talks in conference. The MEN pick women who talk like that. I don't know whether it is a subconscious choice or if they consider the idea that this is what they want the women of the church to see as role models and what is rewarded. But the top male leaders WANT women who are childish.

Back when the women elected a RSP, we got women like Elisa Snow, and Emiline B Wells, and I bet you dollars to doughnuts they didn't speak in a wimpy voice.

[Jeffret]

We all know strong, brilliant women who would make amazing speakers and leaders but we don't seem to hear as much from them. I would gladly transfer my priesthood to one of them and let her run with it. Otherwise, it's pretty much going to waste on me.

I'd offer up mine, also. I'm not using it. There are plenty of women who could make better use of it.

(That's one of the big things that ultimately drove me out. I couldn't stand the disparities in how men and boys were treated versus women and girls. It really disturbed me how mothers are excluded from blessing circles. She has every bit as much priesthood as I do.)

[blazerb]

I don't think the current segregation of the sexes in Mormonism is sustainable. When I was young in my rural hometown, it may have been common to tell someone that the occupation they could have depended on whether they had testicles or ovaries, but now that is not an acceptable position in most of the western world. Just look at the fallout Cam Newton experienced over his thoughtless remark. As has been noted countless times, our leaders came of age in a generation with a different outlook. Right now, they cannot imagine women exercising actual power. However, as my daughter and other girls see the difference between "the world", where they can achieve anything, and "zion", where they are required to work like the dickens but never be seen, I think many of them will find fulfillment outside the church. The church will have to adapt to keep these women active. I suspect that process will take a couple generations, though. Way too slow for my taste. I'll keep encouraging my daughter to aspire to more than what the church offers.

On a related note, the all-male leadership was a huge issue in the breakdown of my marriage. When we started having trouble, I did what I thought I was supposed to: I sought counsel from my priesthood leaders. My wife saw that as just men getting together to conspire against her. I have wondered if our marriage would be better if I had been able to talk to a woman. Maybe it all would have fallen apart anyway. It's weird. My TBM wife resents the male leadership but can't imagine anything different.

[Hagoth]

Before you blame women for using the "primary voice" consider who picks the women who give talks in conference. The MEN pick women who talk like that. I don't know whether it is a subconscious choice or if they consider the idea that this is what they want the women of the church to see as role models and what is rewarded. But the top male leaders WANT women who are childish.

That's exactly my point, alas. It is men who want the women that way, but what is really insidious is that they are doing it in a way that makes everyone think it's God who wants it that way. There are a good percentage of male 70s conference speakers who seem to speak and think like children too. It seems to me that many of the 70s from other countries fit that mold and I assume that, just like some of the women, they are chosen for those precise qualities. We don't want charismatics people in positions of authority outside of our borders to exhibit qualities of leadership and individual thinking that might garner local support that could potentially make them outshine their overseers in SLC.

[Hagoth]

I don't blame the women, but we have done a certain amount top ourselves. As Roseanne Barr said, no one is going to hand you power.

And we all know how eager the GAs are to have meaningful dialog with women who campaign for more power.

[Give It Time]

I don't blame the women, but we have done a certain amount top ourselves. As Roseanne Barr said, no one is going to hand you power.

And we all know how eager the GAs are to have meaningful dialog with women who campaign for more power.

Exactly.

[Thoughtful]

Maybe president Hinckley was inspired telling women to get education. Education is the key to women seeing and experiencing success in the world, which they don't experience at church..

FMH Society FB group is very active, even if the blog isn't. Check it out.

[Give It Time]

Maybe president Hinckley was inspired telling women to get education. Education is the key to women seeing and experiencing success in the world, which they don't experience at church..

FMH Society FB group is very active, even if the blog isn't. Check it out.

Interesting point. Blogs are becoming old school. Still. There's anonymity with the blog. The commenters need that, still.

[Jeffret]

Interesting point. Blogs are becoming old school. Still. There's anonymity with the blog. The commenters need that, still.

If the commenters need anonymity, they'll go where they can get. Such as places like this. It seems like a lot are a lot less concerned with it these days. Maybe that's because they've grown up in the internet age. Maybe because a lot of them don't really care as much. More people are being open about leaving the church on FB and such so others are less worried about it perhaps.

[Mad Jax]

Wow I never even thought once about it. I've always been asked to do the heavy work for church (talking moving heavy bookshelves and the like) and I guess I just never put much thought to it because I was capable. Chairs were another story, I think you're right there was a lot of female socializing while about 10% would pitch in vs about 80% of the guys. Thinking back, I supposed they were planning some post sacrament/stake conference stuff so I never thought there was a passing of the buck, and I don't think there is even today. Good observation.

[alas]

My DH made an interesting comment about this. He does building lock up, and he arrives at the building at the time everyone is supposed to be out. But when RS has an activity, it always runs long. He says he thinks the women are so starved for social time, that closing their work session has to be forced.

But then he tries to help them clean up, and he gets shoed away. He really does not look like a decrepit end old man, but the women won't let him do anything that they are physically capable of. He asks if they want help caring multiple loads of stuff out to their cars, and they say no, like they don't trust him or don't want him even around. They are very friendly, offering him whatever leftover refreshments they have while he waits for them to clean up. But what they want him to do, is eat leftover ice cream and WAIT, not help them clean up.

He says it is just weird, like the feminists who get angry if you open the door for them, only they don't get angry, they just don't let him touch their stuff. They take chairs out of HIS hands, like the guys have done to me after joint activities, and they tell him, it is their job to clean up, not his. He says it is either possessive of their opportunity to do stuff without a man, or he has Really bad breath. Like they love the chance to show themselves that they do not need a man. I can do this. Leave me alone and let me do it. Don't hover, and don't take over, and DONT treat me like a child or invalid.

It made me think through me feelings when I have tried to help and the men don't let me. Condescended to. It is the same feeling as having a GA say in GC that the women are so important to the church, when I feel not only not needed but less than.

So, maybe the women stand around and yack as a way to avoid feeling condescended to. Better to avoid the situation than get treated like a child who is in the road.


And Hagoth, I never thought about the men they pick. Why are the 70s such suck ups? Because the 15 want suck ups. Why do they all use "conference voice"? Because the top men hear "conference voice" and think he is a great speaker. He sounds like he should sound. Even the guys who speak English as a second language have "conference voice" down perfectly.

Story on my husband. Once we were traveling on a conference Sunday. He turned on the car radio, knowing conference will be on, if he can find the right channel. He came to a guy preaching, and I said, Evangelical. He had to listen for several minutes to find the doctrine didn't fit. He found another channel with a guy preaching, and I said, Catholic or Episcople. Again, he insisted on listening until he recognized that the doctrine was not Mormon. He found another guy preaching, and I said, this is conference. He demanded to know how I could tell in three words. And when I finally stopped laughing, I told him about speach styles, and how you don't have to hear doctrine to recognize speach patterns. Evangelicals are for musical, fiery, and passionate. Catholic and other high churches are formal and calm. Mormons have "conference voice" which is kind of sing song, with a particular rhythm to it.

[crossmyheart]

I noticed it was YM who stood by the doors and handed out programs. It was YM who sat by the doors and opened and closed them. The YM passed the sacrament. The men of the ward conducted the meeting. And after church, it was the men who cleaned everything up, emptied garbage, picked up hymnbooks, put away chairs.

And I realized that women, specifically young women, weren’t needed. At all. The entire meeting could be run without them. Even the utilitarian things, like cleaning up, were done by men.

The more I thought about it, I realized YM home taught. They collected fast offerings. The older ones went out with the missionaries. And the YW…did nothing. It isn’t until women become adults that they are given responsibilities and then I was amused how many meetings I went to that revolved around how to engage the 18 year olds/YSA women/young married women, making them feel wanted in RS and as visiting teachers. “Why would they want to do any of that?” I thought. “They’ve never had to be engaged at anything meaningful or useful.” I also wondered what happened to women that young girls wanted to help, but by the time they became YW age, they were content to let others do the work for them.

Brilliant Merrie Miss. Wish we could send this to HQ. This was the beginning of my shelf- seeing the boys I grew up with so busy during church- and I just had to sit there and look pretty. My bigger issue though was Wednesday nights. The boys had scouts and camping and awesome adventures. While we learned to scrapbook.

[alas]

I noticed it was YM who stood by the doors and handed out programs. It was YM who sat by the doors and opened and closed them. The YM passed the sacrament. The men of the ward conducted the meeting. And after church, it was the men who cleaned everything up, emptied garbage, picked up hymnbooks, put away chairs.

And I realized that women, specifically young women, weren’t needed. At all. The entire meeting could be run without them. Even the utilitarian things, like cleaning up, were done by men.

The more I thought about it, I realized YM home taught. They collected fast offerings. The older ones went out with the missionaries. And the YW…did nothing. It isn’t until women become adults that they are given responsibilities and then I was amused how many meetings I went to that revolved around how to engage the 18 year olds/YSA women/young married women, making them feel wanted in RS and as visiting teachers. “Why would they want to do any of that?” I thought. “They’ve never had to be engaged at anything meaningful or useful.” I also wondered what happened to women that young girls wanted to help, but by the time they became YW age, they were content to let others do the work for them.

Brilliant Merrie Miss. Wish we could send this to HQ. This was the beginning of my shelf- seeing the boys I grew up with so busy during church- and I just had to sit there and look pretty. My bigger issue though was Wednesday nights. The boys had scouts and camping and awesome adventures. While we learned to scrapbook.

This was probably the first item on my shelf. I sat in primary and watched the older boys, 12 or so. And they were brats. Misbehaved brats, who thought the world revolved around them because everyone treated them as so special. My older brothers were part of the brats. They were mean and selfish, crude and rude.

Then in primary we heard how it was so wonderful that Joseph was 14 when God selected him as a prophet. Such a young boy would be open and not have made up his mind....bla bla bla. I look at the boys who were 14. I was so unimpressed. They were arrogant, spoiled, opiated. Hardly the kind of person who would be humble and teachable. It was not "wonderful" that God would pick a 14 year old boy. It was stupid. I tried to imagine God appearing to a 14 year old boy, and all I could imagine was this boy throwing a spit wad at God, just before telling a fart joke. Yeah, a 14 year old boy can be serious for long enough to hear God, when they can't pay attention for 30 seconds in class.

I just could not believe that God would pick a 14 year old boy, because that meant God was stupid. Never got over that feeling.