Asking for a suggestion

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Post Reply
User avatar
Rob4Hope
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:43 pm
Location: Salt Lake City -- the Motherland!!

Asking for a suggestion

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:00 am

Can anybody out there suggest some fo the best places on the internet to debunk FairMormon articles?

My interest is piqued about the apologetic topic, and I want to delve just for curiosity sake. But, I don't want to spend inordinate amounts of time doing comparative searches and reading to find some of the better "debunking" sites.

User avatar
Jeffret
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Jeffret » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:23 am

FairMormon?
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

User avatar
slavereeno
Posts: 1247
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:30 am
Location: QC, AZ

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by slavereeno » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:34 am

Other than MormonThink? I really like the back and forth between Runnell's CES Letter, the FAIR response to the CES Letter, and then Runnell's response to FAIR. I appreciated his response to fair as much as the original CES letter https://cesletter.org/debunking-fairmormon/

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:40 pm

I've settled on, "Joseph made it all up and it grew legs and morphed into an institutionally dishonest mega corporation led by so called apostles, attorneys, and business leaders!"

Why bother?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
Rob4Hope
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:43 pm
Location: Salt Lake City -- the Motherland!!

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:29 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:40 pm
I've settled on, "Joseph made it all up and it grew legs and morphed into an institutionally dishonest mega corporation led by so called apostles, attorneys, and business leaders!"

Why bother?
Ahhh...I have a rabid SIL and I wanna give her some good stuff. So, for the sake of interest primarily and just being snarky with her to shut her up, I wanna make a decent effort.

Oh wow!....that was honest hunh.

User avatar
StarbucksMom
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by StarbucksMom » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:40 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:23 am
FairMormon?
Lol--so, so true. :lol:

User avatar
didyoumythme
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by didyoumythme » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:14 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:00 am
Can anybody out there suggest some fo the best places on the internet to debunk FairMormon articles?

My interest is piqued about the apologetic topic, and I want to delve just for curiosity sake. But, I don't want to spend inordinate amounts of time doing comparative searches and reading to find some of the better "debunking" sites.
Are there any that actually make sense? They seem to debunk themselves.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Corsair » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:04 am

Here's a suggestion for debunking things unintentionally. Stop studying the LDS church entirely. instead, study something unrelated that you are actually interested in. I ended up studying the history of the Roman and Byzantine empires, ancient history starting with what is know about Sumer (c. 4500 BC), and a history of early Christianity from the point of view of Catholicism. I realize that these subjects are not entirely unrelated to Mormonism, but each podcast and book was simply indifferent to Mormonism and effectively ignored it.

I really was trying to not to study the LDS church. But inevitably each of these subjects would describe matter-of-fact events that show just how irrelevant and pointless the LDS church actually is compared with real events. The history of the ancient world showed the Minoans, Sumerians, Peruvian Chico Norte, and the Egyptian Old Kingdom all entirely failed to mention Noah's flood or the Tower of Babel. Each of these dispersed nations have extensive histories between 2500-2000 BC and were somehow not at all affected by the pivotal events of the book of Genesis.

The history of early Christianity makes the LDS claims of the "Great Apostasy" look both silly and insulting. The leaders of the nascent Christian church after Peter, James, and John were actually Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp. I mentioned this to my brother and he asked, "I wonder if they held the Melchizedek Priesthood?". That's an amusing question, because I followed up with, "How would you tell whether or not they held the priesthood?" He had not way to know or check, because Mormon priesthood is undetectable. This has some unflattering implications for the state of LDS priesthood today.

Study something else that really interests you. Mormonism becomes irrelevant.

User avatar
oliver_denom
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:09 pm

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by oliver_denom » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:02 am

Corsair wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:04 am
Here's a suggestion for debunking things unintentionally. Stop studying the LDS church entirely. instead, study something unrelated that you are actually interested in... Mormonism becomes irrelevant.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The only way evidence would convince someone of anything, would be if they actually care about evidence to begin with. FAIR's job is to find an answer, and it doesn't really matter how well they do it because the content doesn't really matter. Finding other things to replace my obsessive studies of Mormonism have been a big help in letting it go. In Mormon terms, it's an addiction.

Mormonism will persist in one way or another long after we're all dead. The best refutation of Mormonism is to live a happy and fulfilling life without it. Within the church's paradigm there's only two things you can be, fighting for them or fighting against them. As long as you're doing one of those, you help perpetuate the narrative. Nothing is more confusing than someone who is knowledgeable of the church, and just walks away without looking back. They either have to convince themselves that you're actually with them, or that you're secretly fighting against them. Follow your interests and be as kind and forgiving towards others as you can. Give the people in your life something that neither FAIR nor the LDS church can offer, unconditional love.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

User avatar
Grace2Daisy
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:01 am
Location: With the Love of My Life

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Grace2Daisy » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:40 pm

You've probably already seen this, it is Debunking FairMormon's Debunking of the CES Letter: https://cesletter.org/debunking-fairmormon/

And here is MormonThink's response to FM going after that site: http://www.mormonthink.com/fair.htm
"What is truth?" retorted Pilate. John 18:38

User avatar
Rob4Hope
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:43 pm
Location: Salt Lake City -- the Motherland!!

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:14 pm

I'm liking the CES letter.

Though not a typical debunking the apologist type of site, I consider D. Michael Quinn's books, as well a Palmer's and others as useful.

User avatar
Stig
Posts: 301
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:15 pm

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Stig » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:42 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:14 pm
I'm liking the CES letter.

Though not a typical debunking the apologist type of site, I consider D. Michael Quinn's books, as well a Palmer's and others as useful.
The problem I see with the CES Letter is it's tone. A rabid defender will use that to discredit the entire thing.
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

User avatar
Rob4Hope
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:43 pm
Location: Salt Lake City -- the Motherland!!

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:25 am

Stig wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:42 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:14 pm
I'm liking the CES letter.

Though not a typical debunking the apologist type of site, I consider D. Michael Quinn's books, as well a Palmer's and others as useful.
The problem I see with the CES Letter is it's tone. A rabid defender will use that to discredit the entire thing.
Tone doesn't affect me as much as just content. Both sides have some nasty tone. I've read exchanges people have had with Brian Hales as well. I take that all in stride. Its the facts I'm after.

One of the things I am going to share with my SIL is the JST and how the BoM--the most correct of any book on earth--required correction (or so it appears). I wonder if she will be able to focus long enough to even see the dilemma. I doubt it, but we shall see.

User avatar
BriansThoughtMirror
Posts: 287
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:37 pm

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by BriansThoughtMirror » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:15 am

I really liked Palmer's Insider's View of Mormon Origins (but I skipped the golden pot bit, as it seemed like a bit of an overreach). He lays out the criticisms in a compassionate, calm way that is also clear and convincing. I read it after I read the FARMS review of the book, which I realized was basically trying really hard to get me to NOT read the book, rather than refuting its claims. As far as debunking, I think if a person really wants to know the truth, they'll have to do a lot of searching themselves. There really is a lot of ambiguity, and a mountain of information. I've just kinda accepted that a lot of people will think differently than I do.

I think Corsair's suggestion is really great! Unfortunately, it would also take a long time, and I don't think it would change the minds of any firm believers. However, I think reading a lot of tangentially related history can create a much more complete picture of what the world is and how it works, including Mormonism, and to me, Mormonism's truth claims don't fit into that broader picture. It seems like a very human organization and a product of its time. I don't claim to be any sort of expert, though.
Reflections From Brian's Brain
https://briansthoughtmirror.wordpress.com/

User avatar
Stig
Posts: 301
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:15 pm

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Stig » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:37 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:25 am
Stig wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:42 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:14 pm
I'm liking the CES letter.

Though not a typical debunking the apologist type of site, I consider D. Michael Quinn's books, as well a Palmer's and others as useful.
The problem I see with the CES Letter is it's tone. A rabid defender will use that to discredit the entire thing.
Tone doesn't affect me as much as just content. Both sides have some nasty tone. I've read exchanges people have had with Brian Hales as well. I take that all in stride. Its the facts I'm after.

One of the things I am going to share with my SIL is the JST and how the BoM--the most correct of any book on earth--required correction (or so it appears). I wonder if she will be able to focus long enough to even see the dilemma. I doubt it, but we shall see.
I guess I would submit the various apologetic attempts to "debunk" the CES Letter as evidence in favor of my argument; almost without fail they go after the alleged lack of "scholarship" (as argument that ignores the origins of the letter), and/or the evident "axe to grind" by the author. I'm simply saying, a toned down version of the content of the letter is likely to be more effective, IMO.
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

User avatar
Rob4Hope
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:43 pm
Location: Salt Lake City -- the Motherland!!

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:53 pm

Stig wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:37 am
Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:25 am
Stig wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:42 pm


The problem I see with the CES Letter is it's tone. A rabid defender will use that to discredit the entire thing.
Tone doesn't affect me as much as just content. Both sides have some nasty tone. I've read exchanges people have had with Brian Hales as well. I take that all in stride. Its the facts I'm after.

One of the things I am going to share with my SIL is the JST and how the BoM--the most correct of any book on earth--required correction (or so it appears). I wonder if she will be able to focus long enough to even see the dilemma. I doubt it, but we shall see.
I guess I would submit the various apologetic attempts to "debunk" the CES Letter as evidence in favor of my argument; almost without fail they go after the alleged lack of "scholarship" (as argument that ignores the origins of the letter), and/or the evident "axe to grind" by the author. I'm simply saying, a toned down version of the content of the letter is likely to be more effective, IMO.
Agreed.

User avatar
Stig
Posts: 301
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:15 pm

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Stig » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:00 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:53 pm
Stig wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:37 am
Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:25 am


Tone doesn't affect me as much as just content. Both sides have some nasty tone. I've read exchanges people have had with Brian Hales as well. I take that all in stride. Its the facts I'm after.

One of the things I am going to share with my SIL is the JST and how the BoM--the most correct of any book on earth--required correction (or so it appears). I wonder if she will be able to focus long enough to even see the dilemma. I doubt it, but we shall see.
I guess I would submit the various apologetic attempts to "debunk" the CES Letter as evidence in favor of my argument; almost without fail they go after the alleged lack of "scholarship" (as argument that ignores the origins of the letter), and/or the evident "axe to grind" by the author. I'm simply saying, a toned down version of the content of the letter is likely to be more effective, IMO.
Agreed.
I'm thinking something like "A Letter to My Wife" might be a better alternative - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18W3A ... sp=sharing
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

User avatar
Rob4Hope
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:43 pm
Location: Salt Lake City -- the Motherland!!

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:50 pm

Stig wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:00 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:53 pm
Stig wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:37 am


I guess I would submit the various apologetic attempts to "debunk" the CES Letter as evidence in favor of my argument; almost without fail they go after the alleged lack of "scholarship" (as argument that ignores the origins of the letter), and/or the evident "axe to grind" by the author. I'm simply saying, a toned down version of the content of the letter is likely to be more effective, IMO.
Agreed.
I'm thinking something like "A Letter to My Wife" might be a better alternative - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18W3A ... sp=sharing
Stig...this reference you gave is a GOOD ONE. This has some meat and potatoes in there. Thank you!

User avatar
Rob4Hope
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:43 pm
Location: Salt Lake City -- the Motherland!!

Re: Asking for a suggestion

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:54 pm

The email exchange is beginning with my SIL. I asked her a VERY simple question to start things off: Do you believe God is a respecter of persons?...meaning he has one set of rules for one person and another for someone else, where one is given preferential treatment? Or do you believe the same rules apply to everyone exactly the same?

There is no way, if she knew any history, she could answer this question at all. I can't see any way to answer it from a faithful LDS position, in historical context, without it blowing up.

I feel bad in a way about starting this email conversation with her. I feel like I'm one of those Pharisees asking Jesus about the tribute money, laying a trap for him.

I may bow out of this email conversation sooner than later. Why?...because my relationship with my SIL is more important than me being right. She is a nice woman. She also holds onto her belief system, which from everything I can see, is VERY immature and based on "good feelings" alone. If she is presented with a dilemma, she may not even be able to see it. The ability to independently think has been suppressed so long, it may have atrophied to the point of being unusable.

Wow...I don't mean any of this in a mean way either.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 50 guests