My Brain Hurts...

[slavereeno]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jJ3ZjbBpSa

I would like to hear all of his answers to his concerns, but this makes me confused again.

TL;DR
Guy resigns/is excommunicated and goes full anti. Receives a faith healing followed by a series of events that appear to him to be miraculous, including an ultimatum he gives to God and returns to the church. During his process he resolves some (or all?) of his doubts somehow.

I get confused because there are some things that I can't see ever being resolved. But listening to a few "I came back" stories really shake me up. I guess I can understand a nuanced return maybe...

So I have prayed for answers throughout my recent sojourn and no amazing miracles for me or any of the hundreds of thousands of others who have had very sincere pleading for answers. Are there just some people God likes and others he doesn't give a flying rat's arse about?

[MalcolmVillager]

I was just saying this same thing to a coworker yesterday. Either God plays favorites, is asleep at the wheel much of the time, has limited powers, or people just invent all this in their heads (subconsciously).

The inconsistency seems unfair.

[Stig]

I was just saying this same thing to a coworker yesterday. Either God plays favorites, is asleep at the wheel much of the time, has limited powers, or people just invent all this in their heads (subconsciously).

The inconsistency seems unfair.

Or, too busy finding people's car keys...

[Hagoth]

I haven't watched all of the video but:

1) People of all faiths have amazing healing stories. Anyone who served a mission in the deep south Bible Belt will tell you they're a dime a dozen. In fact, they're much less common in Mormonism by comparison. Getting cured of the flu isn't even remotely in the ballpark of the kinds of healings I've heard claim.

2) People interpret events in all kinds of ways. The reason NewNameNoah gives for trying to bring down the church is that God cured his Parkinson's as a sign that the church is NOT true. Who do you believe: priesthood/flu? No-priesthood/parkinson's? Tent revival/cancer?

3) A few people on NOM who have had interactions with this guy say he's a complete a-hole and not trustworthy.

4) He's getting tons of praise, love and respect and being treated like a hero. Maybe he likes the attention?

5) People who like to brag about being anti-Mormons who returned to the church are generally really lapsed Mormons who had an experience that joltedthem back into activity, then they reinvent their degree of anti-Mormonness to enhance the story of their triumphant return. You hear this all the time with evangelical Christians who claim that they used to be Christian-hating atheists, when the truth is that they just never really cared about religion until they had a conversion experience and needed a narrative that magnifies the significance of the change in their life.

6) Maybe he's right and we should just forget all of those problems with the BoA, BoM, D&C, polygamy, changing history, changing doctrine... because his flu symptoms went away.

[Wonderment]

5) People who like to brag about being anti-Mormons who returned to the church are generally really lapsed Mormons who had an experience that jolted them back into activity, then they reinvent their degree of anti-Mormonness to enhance the story of their triumphant return. You hear this all the time with evangelical Christians who claim that they used to be Christian-hating atheists, when the truth is that they just never really cared about religion until they had a conversion experience and needed a narrative that magnifies the significance of the change in their life.

Yes. Thousands, if not millions of faithful people, have prayed for miracles, citing their faithfulness and devotion to God, only to see no sign that their prayers have been heard. Then along comes someone who claims that God has removed all his doubts and removed all the items of skepticism that he had placed on his "shelf", and he is now healed and back in the boat. Suddenly, items on his shelf that were of utmost importance, no longer matter. ( How convenient). I believe that these kinds of very dramatic experiences are something that occurs in the mind and the emotions; and it cannot be reasoned out logically. And, the more dramatically the believer relates his story, the more attention-seeking he seems to be. Take these "return to the church" stories with a grain of salt, because it is more of some emotion that goes on in people's own minds, than it is an indication of the truthfulness of the church. -- Wndr.

[slavereeno]

The inconsistency seems unfair.

This is my complaint, why give the answer to <1% of the people who ask? Where's the "giveth to all men liberally"

Or, too busy finding people's car keys...

People of all faiths have amazing healing stories.

Wasn't there a church video where a lady cures an ox by blessing/praying for it. Makes it feel like the church and its authority is neither good nor bad when it comes to faith healing, its simply irrelevant.

The reason NewNameNoah gives for trying to bring down the church is that God cured his Parkinson's as a sign that the church is NOT true

Wow, i want to know more.

Yes. Thousands, if not millions of faithful people, have prayed for miracles, citing their faithfulness and devotion to God, only to see no sign that their prayers have been heard.

Brings to mind Jeremy Runnells. among many others.

I have been thinking of the power of the human mind in healing in general. The placebo effect is a very real thing. People THINK they are getting a medicine when they are really not getting anything and some percentage of them respond to it. Obviously the brain has some real quantifiable control over human physiology, this has always been something that's fascinated me with respect to faith healings.

[Wonderment]

Agreed, the brain does have some real quantifiable control over human physiology. That is why (IMO) techniques like biofeedback can be effective, or breathing /meditation techniques can be effective in lowering blood pressure, decreasing stress, etc. There is a mind/body connection that science is just beginning to learn about. JMO -- Wndr.

[Reuben]

My favorite example of the mind affecting physiology in a religious context is now this one.

[Hagoth]

The reason NewNameNoah gives for trying to bring down the church is that God cured his Parkinson's as a sign that the church is NOT true

Wow, i want to know more.

http://www.mormonstories.org/mike-norton/

[Hagoth]

My favorite example of the mind affecting physiology in a religious context is now this one.

Oh man, that's amazing. One of the scariest moments in my life was one morning in my TBM days when I was flipping through the channels and came across something like this. The preacher walked through the audience touching people on their foreheads, which caused them to collapse to the ground and tremble uncontrollably. Then he did a series of healings. I found the whole thing incredibly entertaining and was chuckling at how gullible the people were until it struck me how earnestly and desperately they believed it. I tried to put myself in their shoes and wonder what they were feeling. I asked myself, "what if this guy really is doing God's will?" Then, WHAM, I was overwhelmingly filled with the feeling that I had always been taught was the spirit's way of giving us confirmation. So was I supposed to interpret that as that this sideshow act was really done by the power of the priesthood, or that the priesthood isn't really necessary? What it taught me was that the Mormon epistemology-via-emotion is not, at least in my case, a good way of determining ultimate truth.

On the MormonStories podcast that I linked for Slavereeno John Dehlin talks about a guy who became very distressed in an interview and his hands swelled up to twice their normal size. The mind can affect the body in all kinds of fascinating ways.

[moksha]

Norman Cousins, the author of Anatomy of an Illness is a good example of self-induced methods to aid in the healing process. If you haven't read the book, you could simply google the name and watch many Youtube videos and even a TV movie starring Edward Asner about Cousin's experience.

Whether from faith or watching the Marx Brother's movies and SNL, stimulations of the bodies various natural defense systems can be beneficial.