The Unimportance Of Women's Work

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Give It Time
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The Unimportance Of Women's Work

Post by Give It Time » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:28 pm

My VT comp wants to do a low key VT visit, this month. She wants to do a luncheon for us and all the sisters we VT. In theory, I think this is great. In reality, it poses problems. I work and with commute time, the "just an hour" would turn into two. I don't take a lunch hour, so that I have time after work to do business with banks, etc. that can only be done during work hours. My two sons schedules are such that I no longer have use of a car during the work day. One son drops me off and the other picks me up. In addition, shifting our schedules too much is frowned upon. With some recent home repairs and new transportation challenges, I've been shifting my schedule. It's time to settle into a groove and stay there for a few months. Besides, this is--I don't know--MY JOB, MY LIVELIHOOD, MY FAMILY'S FOOD ON THE TABLE!! If I shift my schedule or miss a day of work, that should be for me to determine and not my VT comp.

I understand that they are probably thinking everyone takes a lunch hour, but not everyone does. Anyway, I ended up explaining these things to my comp in a loud voice between meetings, because she just wouldn't graciously take no for an answer. Now, the whole room got to hear about some of the challenges I face. It's not like it's any great secret, but if a person is put in a position where they have to air some dirty linen in order to get some understanding, then there should be a societal rule that the person who pushed their agenda should air some of their own linen, as well.

This isn't the only time this has happened. I've had another comp schedule a lunch, not understanding I don't telecommute and can't just duck away. I've had a VT refuse to accept that I couldn't meet at a certain time, because my sons and I needed to go to my husband's work event. Then, there was the RSP who would call "just for a minute" to ask a quick question when I was homeschooling my son. I tried letting it go to voicemail, but the ringing phone and the sound of the message being recorded always disturbed us. I couldn't turn the sound off or down, because I had another son in school and needed to be able to hear the phone if the school called. I had a SIL plan a family party for when I was working and thought I was selfish for not trying to get off. I had another comp when I was homeschooling who thought nothing of taking an hour and a half per visit. Minimum. So, my son is just sitting there doing what during this time? Certainly not learning.

I've had one man (besides my ex) commandeer my day. I had a scouting calling, as did he, and he told me to go to the scout office the next day, even though I had a brand new job.

I was going to put this under doctrinal, because, other than Bishop, I don't think we go around disrespecting men's lives and schedules. I try to imagine this situation gender reversed and I just don't see it happening. I understand that SAHMs don't always want to take time from their families to accommodate working moms, but working moms have even less time with their families than SAHMs and they're still expected to do the blasted VT. It seems to me that this is a woman problem. Mostly women disrespecting women. I don't consider disrespect doctrine, but I consider not thinking that what a woman does is important so she can just shift her schedule to meet anyone's whim. That one comes from gender roles. Even though it's preached from the pulpit there is no more important work, it sure doesn't look that way in real life.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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trophywife26.2
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Re: The Unimportance Of Women's Work

Post by trophywife26.2 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:59 pm

Are you in the facebook group Aspiring Mormon Women? If not, you should join it. There's a ton of great dialogue among what I think is mainly believing, if not the majority practicing, some aspects of Mormonism and navigating their broader life goals (school and work achievements). It's an amazingly supportive community. I am resigned now, but I stay in the group for the wonderful advice they gave, to cheer women on in their goals, network, and learn from this absolutely amazing community.
Even if it's something disappointing, it's still better to know the truth. Because people can deal with disappointment. And once they've done that, they can feel that they have really grown. And that can be such a good feeling. -Fred Rogers

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Rob4Hope
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Re: The Unimportance Of Women's Work

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:05 pm

I am sad this happening. I've seen things like this happen before. Often women are expected, culturally, to just defer to the church, and even though there are some who see things differently, I think the church still stereotypes women as SAHMs being pretty much the only ideal.

I had one sister who got divorced (he was physically abusive) and needed to find work to support her family. A SIL told her: "You should stay at home and take care of your family. Just have faith. Pay your tithing first, and God will provide." This counsel was ludicrous, as my sister DID find work and fed her family FIRST. When everyone is starving, its kind of hard to be a full-time mama...you know?

Anyway, I have a little empathy as I saw this happening with my sister, so GIT, I can extend at least some understanding from the outside.

I think there is a cultural misogynistic thing going on in multiple levels and areas in LDS culture, and in the world at large. You are being hurt by it.

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Give It Time
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Re: The Unimportance Of Women's Work

Post by Give It Time » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:10 pm

trophywife26.2 wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:59 pm
Are you in the facebook group Aspiring Mormon Women? If not, you should join it. There's a ton of great dialogue among what I think is mainly believing, if not the majority practicing, some aspects of Mormonism and navigating their broader life goals (school and work achievements). It's an amazingly supportive community. I am resigned now, but I stay in the group for the wonderful advice they gave, to cheer women on in their goals, network, and learn from this absolutely amazing community.
I used to be, but found the conversation too faithful. I've come around to where I can embrace what works and shrug off what doesn't. Thanks for the reminder, because it looks like a great group.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: The Unimportance Of Women's Work

Post by Give It Time » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:30 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:05 pm
I am sad this happening. I've seen things like this happen before. Often women are expected, culturally, to just defer to the church, and even though there are some who see things differently, I think the church still stereotypes women as SAHMs being pretty much the only ideal.

I had one sister who got divorced (he was physically abusive) and needed to find work to support her family. A SIL told her: "You should stay at home and take care of your family. Just have faith. Pay your tithing first, and God will provide." This counsel was ludicrous, as my sister DID find work and fed her family FIRST. When everyone is starving, its kind of hard to be a full-time mama...you know?

Anyway, I have a little empathy as I saw this happening with my sister, so GIT, I can extend at least some understanding from the outside.

I think there is a cultural misogynistic thing going on in multiple levels and areas in LDS culture, and in the world at large. You are being hurt by it.

Thank you, Rob. I think a lot of this attitude comes from outside the church, but there's also strong pressure to put church first and the woman puts church first by doing VT and the man puts church first by providing for his family.

Still, I think a lot of it is just plain lack of respect, because it wasn't just about my job, it was also about homeschooling my son and going to my husband's work event. However, if VT didn't exist, not one of these things would have happened. Not even the call from the RSP, because my calling was to work with her on coordinating the routes (nope, wait, my SIL and her party would have happened). I've been thinking more about this. Now, if one of the sisters I VT had a genuine emergency and I was called to help, I would rearrange my schedule to do so. However, this is a lunch and a general social visit. My work has asked us--and I agree--to keep these disruptions to a minimum.

On the flip side, I do appreciate that they are working so hard to include me, but it got really uncomfortable because my comp wouldn't accept my initial no. I've gotten so I really don't do business with people who don't respect my no. There are times when it's unavoidable, but I keep it as a general policy. My ex used to tell me I was too nice about my no's. That's why people don't respect them. He believed I should say no and back it up with all the embarrassing and ugly reasons for my no, because it would eventually come to that anyway. I disagreed with him at the time and I still do.

I believe in a society where we are polite and kind to each other. I think a polite no is and should be sufficient. I believe that telling a person they need to be firmer in their no--to yell it or be rude or embarrassing--should not be the standard of behavior. To me it's a little victim blaming when the clueless person just isn't cluing in that no means no. My ex used to make his no's firmer by being rude. He used to make my no's firmer by spilling embarrassing information about me. So, in the interest of world peace and a kinder planet, I believe that people should start cluing in that the second no from a person really does mean there are solid reasons and to drop it.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Jeffret
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Re: The Unimportance Of Women's Work

Post by Jeffret » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:37 am

Church society and expectations are still based on a "1950's" model. American society in general undervalues women's work in many ways, but Mormon society lags well behind and these disparities are pretty much a necessity for Mormonism.

Mormonism needs a family structure based on the somewhat mythical "1950's" separation of responsibilities, with a provider husband and a stay-at-home mother. Without that, it really can't function the way it does. This structure is baked into the system with the priesthood, the church administrative duties for men, and a focus on the home for women. The majority of the significant volunteer responsibilities fall to men. They don't have the time to fulfill what is expected in these callings without a SAHM devoted to managing the household. If a man has to devote an equal share to child-rearing and household duties, he won't have the time to be bishop, or many other things. It falls to the woman to fulfill many of the daytime church duties, the things that need to be done but aren't given much recognition. Cub Scout den meetings used to be run entirely by Den Mothers in the after school hours, but changes in society have shifted it to evening, creating additional pressure for meeting space and other resources. The Church kind of needs a SAHW for RSP, because it works so much better if she can fulfill many of her duties during the day. It's kind of required.

Without this separation of duties, the Church's structure of lay leadership and heavy volunteer involvement kind of breaks down. People don't have time, particularly often the flexible time, to make it work. This is one of the big reasons why the Church has fought so hard to maintain traditional gender roles and to keep women from working, at least from working regular, career, full-time jobs. Of course, there are also other factors, including a love of tradition, but the lay leadership and priesthood structure depends upon these separation of labors and undervaluing women's work.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Give It Time
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Re: The Unimportance Of Women's Work

Post by Give It Time » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:42 pm

Really good points, Jeffret. As I was writing my previous posts and I've been considering this lunch invitation. Yes, the lunch is only one hour, if everyone arrives on time--which they won't. The lunch will be only one hour, if we set a timer and shut down the conversation after forty-five minutes. Then, there's the commute to and from and that will add 30 minutes minimum, if the traffic and weather cooperate. Plus, I am over people, at work. I really should be there to supervise and that "only one hour" will have to be made up which will come out of my precious little family time and may require an extra trip into work to accomplish.

My son asked me why don't they do some sort of get together in the non-work hours and I told him they don't want to take time from their husbands and families. The schedules really are incompatible, have been for a long time and will only continue. Visiting teaching truly needs to be overhauled or disbanded. The old model simply doesn't work, anymore.

This ongoing disrespect for my schedule and what I need to do as a mom was happening even when I was a SAHM. In my next ward, I'm going to opt out of VT and be quite plain about how it is a relic of a time when women were stay at home and has little relevance today. Make me part of the calling tree. I'll be happy to seek out and visit any sisters at church, call on me in an emergency, but VT the old fashioned way and I are parting company.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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2bizE
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Re: The Unimportance Of Women's Work

Post by 2bizE » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:29 pm

find the work women do the in the church so much more valuable and important than any other group. The bishop usually provides meaningful service, but what women do in general surpasses what the men can do.
~2bizE

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Give It Time
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Re: The Unimportance Of Women's Work

Post by Give It Time » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:56 pm

2bizE wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:29 pm
find the work women do the in the church so much more valuable and important than any other group. The bishop usually provides meaningful service, but what women do in general surpasses what the men can do.
Thank you.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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