Reasons for keeping a TR

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Hagoth
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Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by Hagoth » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:04 pm

Corsair's comment from another thread jumped out at me:
Corsair wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:06 am
I have a hard time maintaining any kind of temple recommend for any reason other than my own hilariously self-serving reasons.
I wonder how many members of the church, NOMs and non-NOMs alike, fit into this category - that is, they maintain a temple recommend for reasons other than a genuine passion for "redeeming the dead." I have no doubt that the vast majority of recommend holders would cite dead-redeeming as their primary motivation but I suspect that most, if they were entirely honest with themselves, maintain their recommend primarily as: a) an elite membership card, b) a marriage attendance ticket and, c) a sign of "worthiness" and parchment of warding against gossip and raised eyebrows.

I have a recommend because it is important to Mrs. Hagoth to know that I CAN go to the temple with her, even though I seldom do. I suspect most NOM recommend holders are in the same boat. She is disappointed every other year when I remind her that they probably won't give me one this time, and they really shouldn't because I don't play by the rules. She recognizes that those rules are mere technicalities. Somehow I have squeaked by purely due to leadership roulette, but our current bishop seems to be stiffening up lately. He refused a recommend to THE most charitable, remarkable, Christian lady in our ward because she isn't entirely certain that Thomas Monson is a prophet.

I believe that, in a rational world, my devotion to my wife and my willingness to play along should be adequate reason to keep a recommend. Well, that plus the hundreds of thousands of dollars of elite membership fees I have paid to the church, no questions asked, over my lifetime.

I have given my share of nuanced answers in the past, but with each subsequent recommend interview I become less and less nuanced. I still have a year left on the current subscription but I don't see any way I can limbo under the bar again considering the following conditions, each of which is by itself adequate grounds of recommend refusal:

-I do NOT believe that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God.
-I do NOT believe the church of Jesus Christ was restored in these the latter days (and if it was it sure as hell isn't the modern LDS church)
-I try to remain open to a concept of some sort of God, but I do NOT have a testimony of Elohim of Kolob.
-I DO drink tea, coffee, and occasional alcoholic devil's brews
-I do NOT pay any tithing
-I do NOT always wear garments - particularly when mowing the lawn
-I DO associate with persons and groups who are antagonistic toward the church (love you guys)
-I do NOT strive to attend all of my meetings

When I look back over this list I see that there is not a single thing that, by anyone else's standards, would imply that I am not a good and "worthy" person; I am actually more involved in church activity than most members of other religions, despite my non-believing status. It's all cultic in-group signalling. None of it actually means anything outside of the group-think environment in which it is administered. BUT somehow I'm a good guy from the church-centric point of view as long as I can manage to do just the right tap dance to get the recommend (because there's still hope for me?), but a bad guy if I don't.

I'm on the verge of rambling now, but I just wanted to throw these thoughts out there to see how others feel about the general wackiness and confusion about what temple recommends really are, what they actually mean, and why they are so important.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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crossmyheart
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by crossmyheart » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:40 pm

I just started to type that the original intentions for a TR and even the correlating interview were probably good. But just sitting here at my computer, imagining someone coming up with the idea of a TR just didn't sit right as being a magnanimous Christian gesture. The more I think about it, it probably was meant to be a sieve to weed out the undesirables, the ones who were't paying enough, weren't in the right social circles, and weren't obedient.

They can have their exclusive club- I don't want in anymore. I'd rather be golfing.

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oliver_denom
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by oliver_denom » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:19 pm

I can tell you why I don't have a recommend, it's because they no longer bother me with callings.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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wtfluff
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by wtfluff » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:27 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:04 pm
I wonder how many members of the church, NOMs and non-NOMs alike, fit into this category - that is, they maintain a temple recommend for reasons other than a genuine passion for "redeeming the dead."
The fact that they encourage ALL members to maintain a temple recommend at all times proves that it isn't only for "redeeming the dead."

There are folks in third-world countries who might, if they are extremely lucky, attend the temple once in their lives for their own ordinances. If the recommend were only for actual temple attendance, these folks should only "maintain" a recommend for the time period where they will actually attend...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:33 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:04 pm
I suspect that most, if they were entirely honest with themselves, maintain their recommend primarily as: a) an elite membership card, b) a marriage attendance ticket and, c) a sign of "worthiness" and parchment of warding against gossip and raised eyebrows.

I have a recommend because it is important to Mrs. Hagoth to know that I CAN go to the temple with her, even though I seldom do. I suspect most NOM recommend holders are in the same boat.
For me, it is in-group signaling. It's important to my husband that I am part of the group and I don't want to be hassled by church leaders. So long as I have it, I can be a little heretical, unorthodox, or whatever, but I have that TR that says I am a member in good standing.

I'm fortunate my husband isn't into the temple. I think the only time we've ever done a session together was when I got my endowments. Maybe there was a time very early in our marriage, but nothing comes to mind. I went a lot by myself for the first couple of years because I was convinced I could understand it. I did get my husband to do sealings with me five years ago because I wanted to hear the words for myself. That was the last time either of us went.

I'm a little concerned there might be some kind of temple night I'm expected to attend with his new calling, but I refuse. The temple is NOT babysitter worthy. And it isn't a date. And my husband knows this.

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No Tof
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by No Tof » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:12 pm

I do understand why others continue to go through the ordeal of the TR interview and get a renewal every other year, and feel empathy and support them in their path.

Just can't bring myself to do it though. 2.5 years ago or so it expired. I put it in my journal as a souvenir and haven't thought about it since. It was perhaps the hardest thing for DW to adjust to but it seems to have faded into the misty past with her too.

For you who for your own reasons hold one, good for you. Be sure to turn off the lights when you leave.

Just another point of view. :D
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.
Rumi

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Culper Jr.
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by Culper Jr. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:36 pm

Until a couple of years ago, my life, my worldview, my marriage and family centered around the church; the temple being the ultimate manifestation of this. The temple is something that is VERY important to my wife. All of the crazy doctrine, history, or stupid leadership issues I have don't hit her too hard. She even agrees with me about some of it. But to her, the temple is literally what binds our family together. I've said before, if you're driving down the highway at 80 mph and suddenly shift into reverse, something is going to break. I'll do whatever I need to do to preserve my family and try to slowly and gently expose the brainwashing that gripped me for years. I won't break my family over some stupid magical incantations and hand gestures. I also can't deal honestly with dishonest people. If Ballard can emphatically state in a live broadcast that the church has never hidden anything from it's members, I can say I believe in the restoration and that TSM is a prophet. Maintaining a TR is a means to an end for me.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by MalcolmVillager » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:24 am

Culper Jr. wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:36 pm
Until a couple of years ago, my life, my worldview, my marriage and family centered around the church; the temple being the ultimate manifestation of this. The temple is something that is VERY important to my wife. All of the crazy doctrine, history, or stupid leadership issues I have don't hit her too hard. She even agrees with me about some of it. But to her, the temple is literally what binds our family together. I've said before, if you're driving down the highway at 80 mph and suddenly shift into reverse, something is going to break. I'll do whatever I need to do to preserve my family and try to slowly and gently expose the brainwashing that gripped me for years. I won't break my family over some stupid magical incantations and hand gestures. I also can't deal honestly with dishonest people. If Ballard can emphatically state in a live broadcast that the church has never hidden anything from it's members, I can say I believe in the restoration and that TSM is a prophet. Maintaining a TR is a means to an end for me.
Love the throwing it into reverse while going 80 analogy. Agreed on the if Ballard can say that, I can say this logic.

I will take the membership card the same way I do my gym membership. I know I will never use it, I don't want it, but it comes as a package deal with my wife's affiliation with that institution.

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GoodBoy
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by GoodBoy » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:56 pm

If you want to go to the temple, and do not intend to try to embarrass the church, then just say what they want to hear and go. Since the church isn't true, it really doesn't matter. It only matters to you and to your wife.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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moksha
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by moksha » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:38 am

If you live in Utah, you never know when the next pogrom will occur. However, if you have a Temple Recommend you can show it to the marauding Cossack Elders in hope that they will pass over your household.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Reuben
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by Reuben » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:25 pm

moksha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:38 am
If you live in Utah, you never know when the next pogrom will occur. However, if you have a Temple Recommend you can show it to the marauding Cossack Elders in hope that they will pass over your household.
Reminds me of a very recent experience.

I visited Israel for business, and took a day to sightsee, finishing at the holocaust museum in Mount Herzl. It's literally inside the mountain, slicing through it like a knife. It tells a story of what happens when a desperate country's parliament appoints a genocidal madman as chancellor, in an environment already teeming with cultural tension. The toll taken on the Untermensch - the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and mentally and physically handicapped - only begins at 7 million dead.

Here's the main thing I didn't understand before: the Untermensch - the underclass, the other, the less-than - had already been identified and oppressed long before "nonexistent" became the answer to the popular question of their appropriate status. This preexisting division and oppression was a prerequisite to Hitler's reign of terror.

I walked away from that building much more soured on class division and tribalism than ever.

I have a current TR, which I got in order to remain in the overclass. I'm having serious second thoughts now. The LDS church forces its members to choose between being Übermensch and being Untermensch. Having seen what the Übermensch are capable of, I think I'd rather be Untermensch.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Corsair
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Re: Reasons for keeping a TR

Post by Corsair » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:56 am

Reuben wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:25 pm
I have a current TR, which I got in order to remain in the overclass. I'm having serious second thoughts now. The LDS church forces its members to choose between being Übermensch and being Untermensch. Having seen what the Übermensch are capable of, I think I'd rather be Untermensch.
I understand what you are saying, but I don't think this TR overclass is all that impressive. A temple recommend could be used just like a Yellow Star of David if certain religious elements were overtly in charge. Yes, it can be useful in Utah and in the sociality in your ward but it only makes you a medium fish in a small pond. The big fish in the small pond are bishops and stake presidents and we have all been underwhelmed by local ward leadership at times. I say this as a guy you holds a "current" temple recommend and has endless respect for the kind man who currently serves as my bishop.

Cultivating social and family connections outside of the LDS church is an important step if and when someone is leaving the faith. Joining some new group of Übermensch is not necessary for authenticity. It's more authentic to simply build connections with good people no matter which "class" might attempt to define them.

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