Timothy Leary, the Holy Ghost and a new kind of religion

[Hagoth]

This might seem long and kind of rambling, but stick with me.

The weirdest thing happened last night.

I watched a documentary on Netflix called Dying to Know: Ram Dass & Timothy Leary. As you might guess, it's about Timothy Leary, Ram Dass, their role in the drug revolution and their philosophies as they approached their own deaths (Ram Dass hasn't quite arrived yet).

Mrs. Hagoth came home in the middle of it and sat down and watched the rest with me. We were both kind of caught off guard by how it affected us. There were a couple of moments that are best described in the Mormon context as "feeling the spirit." Mind you, this was not any sort of feel-good recruiting film, it was just a documentary about two men who took massive amounts of hallucinogenic drugs. Amidst the quasi-hindu hippy talk were some truly profound comments that made me realize that these guys have invested themselves in a spiritual journey that gives them insights that are far more genuine than anything you could hope for from corporate figureheads who are merely reciting a prescribed doctrine. It was obvious that they have found an impressive degree of happiness and joyful acceptance of life, pain and and death. I came away with a renewed desire to try to find a way to love everyone. Weird. You will probably think I'm crazy if you watch it and it doesn't have the same effect on you, but I still recommend it just because it's a fascinating story.

I don't know how many of you have experimented with psychedelic drugs, but I can bear testimony that my limited use of psilocybin back in the day produced the most profound spiritual experiences of my life, by a factor of about 100. Me return to devout active Mormonism had its moments but never came close. It makes me curious about what other ways there are to stimulate the brain in ways that create "spirituality."

I have been looking forward to the Spiritual Brain podcast project that Glenn Ostlund is doing with Michael Ferguson, but I understand it's on hold due to "artistic differences." Too bad because I'm really interested to see where that was heading. In case you aren't up to speed, Ferguson is the guy who has been mapping the activity of the brain during a spiritual experience. He did his doctorate work on Mormons. He is approaching the realization that religious experience is an important evolutionary function of human nature and is hinting at developing some sort of science-based religion-like process/experience/program that meets peoples' needs for religious community and expression without requiring belief in magic.

I still pray from time to time (not to a guy on a throne), but I think of it in terms of trying to make my skull as thin as possible to more immediately experience of the universe. It works to varying degrees but I am developing an optimism that, thanks to people like Ferguson, we might be on the verge of gaining understanding how all of these things: spirituality, religion, psychedelics, meditation, etc. work in the brain and that there might be ways to more directly harness our inherent ability to experience the sense of wonder and contentedness that we're looking for from those activities. I imagine that would involve something that looks sort of like religion and would contain activities that resemble prayer and ritual, but I can't imagine exactly what those might be.

OK, I'll put down my landing gear and get back to earth now, but if anyone has any thoughts about this, I'l love to hear them.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Mmmmmm spirit drugs!

[Red Ryder]

Sounds interesting!

I'm not sure how to put this into words but I'm willing to seek out "spirituality" Ferguson is chasing to reap the feel good benefits of religion without putting in time in an actual church. I'm not suggesting religion in a pill form or other psycho active drug, but I do think there are intangible benefits. To date the best I can find is a good service project of my choosing rather than being assigned. But that "feel good" feeling wears off as soon as I get home and start back on the daily routine.

If that happiness euphoria could be bottled I'd partake although on further thought sex and beer seem to do the trick.

[Hagoth]

Sounds interesting!

I'm not sure how to put this into words but I'm willing to seek out "spirituality" Ferguson is chasing to reap the feel good benefits of religion without putting in time in an actual church. I'm not suggesting religion in a pill form or other psycho active drug, but I do think there are intangible benefits. To date the best I can find is a good service project of my choosing rather than being assigned. But that "feel good" feeling wears off as soon as I get home and start back on the daily routine.

If that happiness euphoria could be bottled I'd partake although on further thought sex and beer seem to do the trick.

It may turn out that the proper combination of voluntary service, beer and sex may be the ultimate answer.

So many avenues have been pursued to activate those activities of our brains: singing, chanting, meditation, drugs, fasting, prayer, testifying, mind machines, hemi-synch audio, magnetic fields, hypnosis, etc, etc, all of which seem to work for different people in varying degrees. I can imagine a program of stimuli designed to specifically influence the brain for "enlightenment", based on scientific understanding of what pushes the right brain chemical buttons that might include a regime of listening to specific sounds, chanting, visual stimulation, diet/drug consumption, group activity, whatever. Of course someone would probably immediately commercialize it and turn it into some kind of expensive cult.

[LaMachina]

Sounds fascinating. I've read a lot of Sam Harris, including Waking Up, and for being such an ardent anti-theist, he is a huge proponent of scientific "spirituality". Mostly he advocates meditation but he does somewhat hesitantly suggest that psychedelics can be very mind expanding.

I've never tried anything to this point, besides alcohol, which for me has been nothing but positive so far. I'd be really curious to try some psychedelics but the prospect does still make me nervous.

If there were a corner mushroom store that did everything to help facilitate a positive experience I'd probably sign up right now.

[Hagoth]

I've never tried anything to this point, besides alcohol, which for me has been nothing but positive so far.

If you can imagine alcohol as a moonlit boat ride on a peaceful river, psychedelics are more like a roller coaster ride through an MC Escher drawing, but with rainbow tornadoes, that happens outside of the universe. In sufficient doses it comes with all of the joy (and potential terror) that you would expect from something like that.

[Wonderment]

One of my favorite books is "Be Here Now" by Ram Dass, and despite the hippie phrases that were popular back then, I think he really does have a lot to offer seekers of spiritual experiences - or anyone, really. He has a lot of insight into that which is eternal and that which is temporal, and where we as humans fit into existence on this earth as we know it. It's well worth the time spent reading his books, or watching his videos, and he conveys spiritual topics so well that he does give a "contact high" ( in the slang of the 1960's), or as we would call it "feeling the spirit." ( I always thought those 2 concepts could be pretty much one and the same). - Wndr.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

I don't know how many of you have experimented with psychedelic drugs, but I can bear testimony that my limited use of psilocybin back in the day produced the most profound spiritual experiences of my life, by a factor of about 100.

I've never tried them, but (and this is a big but) if my wife were good with it, and I could do it in a safe situation (at least a couple people with me the whole time that I trust implicitly), and I could do it with a drug with justified confidence in its purity and dosage, I'd be really tempted. Then there's that whole legal thing.

I have been looking forward to the Spiritual Brain podcast project that Glenn Ostlund is doing with Michael Ferguson, but I understand it's on hold due to "artistic differences." Too bad because I'm really interested to see where that was heading. In case you aren't up to speed, Ferguson is the guy who has been mapping the activity of the brain during a spiritual experience. He did his doctorate work on Mormons. He is approaching the realization that religious experience is an important evolutionary function of human nature and is hinting at developing some sort of science-based religion-like process/experience/program that meets peoples' needs for religious community and expression without requiring belief in magic.

Ferguson's work seems very interesting. I had no idea he might look into developing a science-based religion-like process/experience/program that meets peoples' needs for religious community and expression. I hope he moves forward with it. I'll be watching for this.

It makes me curious about what other ways there are to stimulate the brain in ways that create "spirituality."

My conversion to the LDS Church was due to an amazingly strong "spiritual" experience. During my more than two decades in la Iglesia, I regularly had spiritual experiences. A few were powerful like that first one. Most were much more subtle.

[Corsair]

If you can imagine alcohol as a moonlit boat ride on a peaceful river, psychedelics are more like a roller coaster ride through an MC Escher drawing, but with rainbow tornadoes, that happens outside of the universe. In sufficient doses it comes with all of the joy (and potential terror) that you would expect from something like that.

This is a really interesting perspective for me because neither of these experiential descriptions are what I am normally seeking. I can find enough
moonlit ride on the alcohol river through my normal thought processes and I'm happy with actual rollercoasters. I think my interest in WoW violations runs largely through coffee simply for the rebellion of it rather than the the experience.

The actual mental states I seek out are feelings of accomplishment. I can find this in sufficient quantities currently, but I can empathize with others that still desire chemically altered states.

[Hagoth]

If you can imagine alcohol as a moonlit boat ride on a peaceful river, psychedelics are more like a roller coaster ride through an MC Escher drawing, but with rainbow tornadoes, that happens outside of the universe. In sufficient doses it comes with all of the joy (and potential terror) that you would expect from something like that.

This is a really interesting perspective for me because neither of these experiential descriptions are what I am normally seeking. I can find enough
moonlit ride on the alcohol river through my normal thought processes and I'm happy with actual rollercoasters. I think my interest in WoW violations runs largely through coffee simply for the rebellion of it rather than the the experience.

The actual mental states I seek out are feelings of accomplishment. I can find this in sufficient quantities currently, but I can empathize with others that still desire chemically altered states.

My experiences with mushrooms were during a period when I was inactive due to a combination of Book of Abraham cogdis and avoidance of a really weird inner city singles ward. I was still a hopeful believer in most aspects of Mormonism. The massive lightbulb that came on for me in the midst of my first trip was this was something that I wished EVERY Mormon could experience! I wished all to receive it! For me it was something like a glimpse into the promise of godhood that Mormonism offered and it validated my hope for profound spirituality beyond the mundane. The whole time I realized that it was "just a drug" but I can tell you it's quite an experience to ascend from looking at your own DNA to gazing at the horizon and becoming aware that there is a further horizon beyond that, and yet a further one beyond that.. and on and on to infinity... to ultimately feeling like you're holding the entire universe in your hands and gazing back into it. Sure, it's a trick of chemistry, but it can still be monumentally profound in the way you really, really wish religion could be.

I don't know if I'll every try it again, but who knows. Later, when I became reactivated in the church and really tried so hard to be a perfect Mormon I felt guilty that I still cherished my little detours into the unprobed corners of the cosmos, and I secretly wished they would slip something in the sacrament tray so everyone around me could make the journey.

[Hagoth]

I just remembered a hilarious detail. Both times I tried mushrooms I was listening to Hugh Nibley talks on my car cassette player on my drive out to the desert. I wonder how/if that contributed.

[Reuben]

I don't know if I'll every try it again, but who knows. Later, when I became reactivated in the church and really tried so hard to be a perfect Mormon I felt guilty that I still cherished my little detours into the unprobed corners of the cosmos, and I secretly wished they would slip something in the sacrament tray so everyone around me could make the journey.

This is such a great idea. Do these shrooms maintain their properties when cooked into bread?

[Hagoth]

I don't know if I'll every try it again, but who knows. Later, when I became reactivated in the church and really tried so hard to be a perfect Mormon I felt guilty that I still cherished my little detours into the unprobed corners of the cosmos, and I secretly wished they would slip something in the sacrament tray so everyone around me could make the journey.

This is such a great idea. Do these shrooms maintain their properties when cooked into bread?

There's only one way to find out.
It's not like the old days when you could just mix it into the buckets of wine that were passed around in temple dedications.

[MalcolmVillager]

Interesting thread. I have some friends and family who are heavy believers and periodic users of psychoactive drugs including mushrooms, LSD, and ayahuasca. They are missionaries about the benefits, but certainly caution the bad trip possibilities.

I am somewhat tempted but probably not anything I would pursue. They are pretty messed up because of the use I think. Delusions of grandeur, overreaching enlightenment about rediculoius things, feeling that they can see the future, feeling of superiority, some paranoia for sure.

I don't want to rock the boat for a fleeting and unverifiable epiphany. When you mess with brain chemistry you are taking some be
If risks on how it can impact long term perceptions and attitudes. Besides, dosages vary so much and we just don't know enough about how to control the trip.

I will stick with lived experiences (roller coasters, sex (we will see about adding some beer some day), eclipses, sunrises on a mountain peak, great music, truly intimate and vulnerable human connections (like unassigned charity), etc...

[Rob4Hope]

OK...this is an interesting thread.

I'm also of the opinion that something besides the "Spirit" is going on in brains, and I'll tell you why: Because I "Know the FORCE IS TRUE!"...(and I am not mocking by saying that; just making a point).

I remember sitting in the Star Wars movie and seeing Yoda walk in, knowing there was a bad-a$$ light saber fight coming up, and thinking...H#LL YEH!!!!

I was feeling what felt like the "holy ghost". In hindsight, I'm thinking...HUNH? God witnesses about fiction?

This was years ago and my shelf was cracking anyway. But, it certainly got me thinking about the unreliable nature of trusting feelings (this was NOT my first mental questioning of this--more like my thousandth).

Well,..I'm sorry to be sacrilegious. But, from the feeling of "the Spirit"...I know the FORCE is true. I know it with every fiber of my being...because God told me so, through the burning in the bosom I felt.

And I also know the Dark Side is bad,..like porn. Cuz, I get the same feeling when thinking about them both...pleasure and feelings in..err... other places...

YIKES....GAWD...I don't need the beer! What is going ON with me!!!!

[Josephsmith]

If that happiness euphoria could be bottled I'd partake although on further thought sex and beer seem to do the trick.

I think you have found the secret to the celestial practice of Mormonism sir! Although it wasnt much of a secret towards the end...

[Mad Jax]

Has anyone seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtT6Xkk-kzk&t=11s